WDT #5 : Why do women always had to suffer the most in our epics? - Page 2

Originally posted by: Satrangi_Curls

Unless you cite specific examples, who suffered "the most" will remain subjective.

Bro, they were literal queens. Their sufferings ain't even that much.. gehu ke sath ghun pista hai wali baat thi unki

I am glad to read the thread and proud of us since, we are not influenced by the current definitions of "isms" and are able to objectively and impartially view our itihaasa.

Every yuga, every shastraa leads us to the path of dharma and moksha not withstanding Man or Woman.

They are, true to their depiction equal partners in establishing, protecting and enriching Dharma and Nyaya.

Wow hot topic this week

Lets go point by point with disclaimer that it is totally my pov

I totally agree that women suffers a lot (I can't say the most because I have never have been in man's shoe and don't know much about their struggle), but women, they're looked down in our society or looked up with too much expectations. I work in corporate and I have not seen any discrimination there but there could be many profession where it must be happening. but in households, I can't generalise but yes women face a lot.

My friend told me one story that in her neighbourhood one lady's husband was cheating on her, and when her mother in law got to know she didn't blamed her son but blamed her daughter in law saying of course your husband will go out to get pleasure, your skin colour is so dark what else did you expect 🤯🤷

I mean what else can we expect from anyone if such mindset is still there in society.

The roles being given to gender like men will work outside, women will take care of household but it could never work like this because from childhood if everyone is saying that you'll become doctor but one day you realise you don't want to be a doctor you want to be an engineer then its not your fault 🤷human mind works like that.

Also, Women empowerment came into picture because the work that they were doing inside the house was not considered as work and men started using that excuse to dominate them in home, the superiority complex was very high that time. Women needed to be heard, to stop discrimination and gain equal rights in society.

But this is also true that from the day India got its independence it gave equal rights to men and women and before that for many many years we were living in British society.

The mind set in our society is changing slowly won't deny that but this mind set just couldn't be from the starting. Considering human evolution, I don't think women and man had any kind of superiority complex as they were just figuring out the civilisation in starting.

Tretayug and Dwaparyug:

First of all I don't believe in Uttarakhand so sita mata got banished from ayodhya is not the point I am going to refer.

Dwapar was more on Kalyug side than treta, I don't want to go in polygamy monogamy concept for men and women, because I don't understand polygamy for both the genders so no comments on that.

Regarding power well they were queens and had equal say in court and how common women were treated about that there is no text to refer to that so again can't comment. Kakeyi had power to change ayodhya politics, satyawati with ambika and ambalika took decisions on how to go forward with hastinapur politics. Kunti's words influenced draupadi's marriage. Amba, my fav she achieved what she wanted by showing her valour.

But women were treated badly in every yug that also is a true statement. Siya's haran, draupadi vastra haran, abduction of bhanumati, these all were just to prove that men have more power over women, especially in Dwapar, if instead of Draupadi any pandava would have laughed on that blind comment there would've been challege of dual but as draupadi was women the only punishment they could think of is to disrobe her in front of whole male court 🙄.

Yes all men in every yuga are not same that's why I see is as more of a Dharm adharm issue but there are just many things which men do gets overlooked but when women do it becomes serious offence (and here I am not talking about Kalyuga). Duryodhan had humiliated pandavas so many time but it got overlooked with reason that its just fun banter and Duryodhan is like that only, but when Draupadi just laughed at one comment (which was not good and I am not justifying it) the whole Mahabharata happened 🙄.

Ram Siya are the ideal couple for me, I would never think otherwise no matter what. Ram ji cried when he asked Siya maa to give agnipariksha, Hanuman ji questioned him, lakshman ji even got angry on him (like 🤯) because they consider her their mother , so if there were men who treated women as mere commodity there were men who treated women as the most precious person in the world. That's why we instead of a male female dominated society, equality is needed.

I wrote too much and I don't know what I was trying to conclude so leaving it in the open

The posts made in this thread are my thoughts, my views expressed looking at society at large....... the way stories or their impression fell on my ears..... As I mentioned earlier, I talk to Krishna when something doesn't appeal to my ways of thinking...... I suppose each one of us does that!!!

In today's age, we, educated independent women don't take mythology from a purely religious perspective, we look at it more as social construct of the era.

From childhood, I could always hear around ........ladki ho toh yeh karna hai, voh nahi karna hai..... Luckily, I was brought up in a free environment, thanks and bows to my parents!..... I was rebellious in certain matters ( In our village, women were treated as untouchables during their menstrual cycle) and they supported me in their own way.

Where does this "ladki ho toh" come from?........ it proliferates from the ages of women being asked to follow restraints!..... and my mind questions, why restraints are gender-based.

Not only in mythology but even in social constructs, women were made to suffer. And somehow I find this phenomenon global, not just restricted to Hinduism....The reflections are seen in South Arabia where women fight to get driving licenses.......... as claimed by many religious doctrines in catholic and the book Da Vinci Code claims that Jesus was married but catholic churches have killed this fact.

Across the world, women are still struggling to get equivalent salaries and positions in top senior management. Dukhati rag hai hum sab women ki!....... the thought process as shown in "Ki and KA" is just burgeoning and is not yet socially accepted.

I beg to differ with the impression of Seeta being naive when she demanded the golden deer. It was her appreciation for the beauty of nature. And women appreciate nature more than men..... It's women who adorn flowers in their hair, women who apply henna...... we celebrate nature and beauty! We are neither naive nor greedy!

We must not forget that firstly, Ravan came because Shuparnakha incident happened and it wasn't Seeta directly responsible for her nose being cut off..... It was Ekpatni Ram and the very angry Laxman, the brother duo..... Seeta took the toll of their deeds.....

She was not blindly trusting anybody..... She was just saving Raghukuldharma that a yachak cannot return empty-handed...... In Raghuvansh, there has been Harishchandra, Rama's forefather who gave all his kingdom and his wife for a promise made in sleep..... She was only following the same Raghuvanshi ways.

Krishna tells me, Vidhi ka Vidhaan! Humaare na chahate hue bhi cheeje ho jaati hai!

I still maintain my thought process that from Tretayug to Dwapaaryug women have been further subjugated...... In Ramayan, you have Kaikeyi who fought alongside Dashratha in battle......Seeta who took up Vanvaas alongside Rama and later exile even without him....... So women are shown Strong!.....

Without any disrespect whatsoever to Mata Laxmi, Rukmini-Rakhma, the same strength equivalent to your counterpart does not reflect in Their story..... It's the Parijataka or the Salt or sugar story or the gold vs the tulsi leaf story......... In Tretayug, Seetá's swayamvar was decided to find her equivalent strength, because she could alone lift up the Shiv Dhanush even as a child...... In contrast, Dwaparyug shows women depending on menfolk to come and battle for them.

Speaking of Kaikeyi in Ramayana......Kaikeyi wasn't evil the way the world looked at her. I feel she is the most misunderstood queen of Ramayana..... And she suffers the most because sach mein!....... after so many yugas, aaj tak, ...... koi Kaikeyi naam nahi rakhata.

If she hadn't taken that step of using her boon to send Rama away, Dashratha's curse would cause the untimely death of Rama..... Kaikeyi saved Rama and facilitated his life purpose!..... Whatever the world's views might be, Rama knew this in his heart and he revered Kaikeyi.

Women's suffering continues even today....... They are misunderstood in so many roles!!

Originally posted by: Loving2Missing2

The posts made in this thread are my thoughts, my views expressed looking at society at large....... the way stories or their impression fell on my ears..... As I mentioned earlier, I talk to Krishna when something doesn't appeal to my ways of thinking...... I suppose each one of us does that!!!

In today's age, we, educated independent women don't take mythology from a purely religious perspective, we look at it more as social construct of the era.

From childhood, I could always hear around ........ladki ho toh yeh karna hai, voh nahi karna hai..... Luckily, I was brought up in a free environment, thanks and bows to my parents!..... I was rebellious in certain matters ( In our village, women were treated as untouchables during their menstrual cycle) and they supported me in their own way.

Where does this "ladki ho toh" come from?........ it proliferates from the ages of women being asked to follow restraints!..... and my mind questions, why restraints are gender-based.

Not only in mythology but even in social constructs, women were made to suffer. And somehow I find this phenomenon global, not just restricted to Hinduism....The reflections are seen in South Arabia where women fight to get driving licenses.......... as claimed by many religious doctrines in catholic and the book Da Vinci Code claims that Jesus was married but catholic churches have killed this fact.

Across the world, women are still struggling to get equivalent salaries and positions in top senior management. Dukhati rag hai hum sab women ki!....... the thought process as shown in "Ki and KA" is just burgeoning and is not yet socially accepted.

I beg to differ with the impression of Seeta being naive when she demanded the golden deer. It was her appreciation for the beauty of nature. And women appreciate nature more than men..... It's women who adorn flowers in their hair, women who apply henna...... we celebrate nature and beauty! We are neither naive nor greedy!

We must not forget that firstly, Ravan came because Shuparnakha incident happened and it wasn't Seeta directly responsible for her nose being cut off..... It was Ekpatni Ram and the very angry Laxman, the brother duo..... Seeta took the toll of their deeds.....

She was not blindly trusting anybody..... She was just saving Raghukuldharma that a yachak cannot return empty-handed...... In Raghuvansh, there has been Harishchandra, Rama's forefather who gave all his kingdom and his wife for a promise made in sleep..... She was only following the same Raghuvanshi ways.

Krishna tells me, Vidhi ka Vidhaan! Humaare na chahate hue bhi cheeje ho jaati hai!

I still maintain my thought process that from Tretayug to Dwapaaryug women have been further subjugated...... In Ramayan, you have Kaikeyi who fought alongside Dashratha in battle......Seeta who took up Vanvaas alongside Rama and later exile even without him....... So women are shown Strong!.....

Without any disrespect whatsoever to Mata Laxmi, Rukmini-Rakhma, the same strength equivalent to your counterpart does not reflect in Their story..... It's the Parijataka or the Salt or sugar story or the gold vs the tulsi leaf story......... In Tretayug, Seetá's swayamvar was decided to find her equivalent strength, because she could alone lift up the Shiv Dhanush even as a child...... In contrast, Dwaparyug shows women depending on menfolk to come and battle for them.

Speaking of Kaikeyi in Ramayana......Kaikeyi wasn't evil the way the world looked at her. I feel she is the most misunderstood queen of Ramayana..... And she suffers the most because sach mein!....... after so many yugas, aaj tak, ...... koi Kaikeyi naam nahi rakhata.

If she hadn't taken that step of using her boon to send Rama away, Dashratha's curse would cause the untimely death of Rama..... Kaikeyi saved Rama and facilitated his life purpose!..... Whatever the world's views might be, Rama knew this in his heart and he revered Kaikeyi.

Women's suffering continues even today....... They are misunderstood in so many roles!!

Bold - I don't think that sentence is correct, how can we held ram and Laxman responsible for what happened to Sita, surpankha should've accepted that they don't want her, she couldn't understand no means no that's why she attacked siya and lost her nose, Ravan took revenge thinking he's avenging his sister and he and his sister was on the wrong side not the raghuvanshi brothers.

Kakeyi is not a misunderstood queen according to me, she did wrong, we all knew if she hadn't done it the whole Ramayan wouldn't have happened or happened differently but she didn't knew about that curse or about Ram's birth purpose. Ram knew or didn't knew we don't know because Ram ji is called a pure human avtaar with no memory of being lord of Universe and he forgave her that's his character shining but she didn't knew and she acted selfishly no one can deny that. By this reason we can justify Ravan's misdeeds as well as he was cursed and in his destiny his death was written by the hand of Lord Vishnu, he did all the adharma so lord Vishnu can take birth and kill him.

Ladki ho to is too real, that I agree completely, even I have faced it with my relatives. Thank God my parents are not like that. I have heard this so many times, you're a girl talk in a little low volume, you're a girl you should know every household chores, sasural jaake kya karogi. I understand that you should know household chores in case of need but not because I am a girl 🙄. I just hate it when people say this

Thank you so much for the discourse. Noone here has disagreed with you that women have been subjugated in the Kalyuga vs Dwapar and Treta yuga, as for specially me, I merely pointed out it was due to the interpretation that has been spread word-of-mouth by male vedic scholars across centuries and that has led us to believe in certain things, and see our epics a certain way. Also, I mentioned about Devi Rukmini since it was not fair to call her a love object based on the lack of scholarly evidence in many places in India. In Maharashtra and Gujarat, she is revered for her intellect too. It is the term I objected to, your definition of strength can obviously be different, and I'd still respect it.

Devi Sita and Rani Kaikeyi played their role as was predetermined by their Raghukul Dharma and vidhi ka vidhaan in the Ramayana, and they did have a much stronger personality than any of us. No two ways about that.

Also, we are one of the few civilisations where we revere a Devi too, like you pointed out in your initial post. There is a 'saumya' roop and a 'raudra' roop, so it is your karm that invite the boon/wrath of either.

As for the state of women today, yes, it is extremely pathetic.

Female Infanticide. Molestation. Rapes. Domestic Abuse. Divorce. EMA. Murder.

From birth to death, you are fighting a battle. No matter what happens, it is your fault.

#EqualForAll #HeForShe #MeToo have just become fancy hashtags for social media.

Equality and justice mechanisms are easily bent by power, greed and corruption.

People are allowed to say things like "Lakshman rekha paar karogi toh marogi" in public.

We ultimately celebrate women who win, but we still do not support their journeys to pursue their passion and glorify the double shift mindset, that they have to look after both their career and households.

But again, even if I pour my heart out here with the agony I feel about this, will things actually change?

Ultimately everyone slowly gets tired of this constant tussle and resigns to their fate.

Dear pl see that Sharupnakha was lusting over Ram and Lakshman and even tried to kill Seeta so she got what she called for .. when we are talking about equality then it shd be both ways if a male lusts over a woman and she defends herself then it’s fine but not other way around .. how come ?! Secondly Ravan was not seeking revenge . He too wanted Sita bec of his lust .. his sister knew him very well so she praised Sita’s beauty and told him that Sita shd be his queen so it was never for revenge that Ravan kidnapped Sita … so pl read scriptures well

Originally posted by: dhun.laagi

Thank you so much for the discourse. Noone here has disagreed with you that women have been subjugated in the Kalyuga vs Dwapar and Treta yuga, as for specially me, I merely pointed out it was due to the interpretation that has been spread word-of-mouth by male vedic scholars across centuries and that has led us to believe in certain things, and see our epics a certain way. Also, I mentioned about Devi Rukmini since it was not fair to call her a love object based on the lack of scholarly evidence in many places in India. In Maharashtra and Gujarat, she is revered for her intellect too. It is the term I objected to, your definition of strength can obviously be different, and I'd still respect it.

Forgive me, if the word sounded wrong.....I didn't mean it in a derogatory way...... Love is the best blessing to the living world. and more so to the human race!

Radhe Radhe is said even today because she taught the world the meaning of completely unconditional love! The highest emotion in this universe!

Sharing a bhajan, I love...... pay attention to the words..... they are simply beautiful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FydksUVtwNA

Originally posted by: RamAayeHain

Bold - I don't think that sentence is correct, how can we held ram and Laxman responsible for what happened to Sita, surpankha should've accepted that they don't want her, she couldn't understand no means no that's why she attacked siya and lost her nose, Ravan took revenge thinking he's avenging his sister and he and his sister was on the wrong side not the raghuvanshi brothers.

Kakeyi is not a misunderstood queen according to me, she did wrong, we all knew if she hadn't done it the whole Ramayan wouldn't have happened or happened differently but she didn't knew about that curse or about Ram's birth purpose. Ram knew or didn't knew we don't know because Ram ji is called a pure human avtaar with no memory of being lord of Universe and he forgave her that's his character shining but she didn't knew and she acted selfishly no one can deny that. By this reason we can justify Ravan's misdeeds as well as he was cursed and in his destiny his death was written by the hand of Lord Vishnu, he did all the adharma so lord Vishnu can take birth and kill him.

Ladki ho to is too real, that I agree completely, even I have faced it with my relatives. Thank God my parents are not like that. I have heard this so many times, you're a girl talk in a little low volume, you're a girl you should know every household chores, sasural jaake kya karogi. I understand that you should know household chores in case of need but not because I am a girl 🙄. I just hate it when people say this

Each one of us to their individual thought process.... and let's respect all...... nobody's responsible for anyone's fate.... yet certain incidents happen as direct cause and effect reaction.

Bold: With due respect to your views, I beg to differ because Dashratha's curse was public knowledge.... All his queens knew it..... Kaikeyi did not know Ram's life purpose but she was the chosen one by the Vidhata himself to facilitate the same.