Veil Off........and i will hear you out - Page 2

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punjini thumbnail
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Posted: 17 years ago
#11

Originally posted by: zoya786uk

Punjini, you seem to be genralising on how women are oppressed who wear the niqab. Many women do choose to wear the niqab do live fullfilling lives. Yes! Is that life is for women in singapore who choose to wear the niqab. Your views were quiet biased and you have sterotyped quiet alot. I myself believe that practising your religion is a personal choice and others shouldn't have the right ti intrevene. You haven't met too many different beings from yourself, yes i can see that quiet clearly.



Maybe I can say the same about you - that you have not met many free-thinking people for whom religion is not the sole aim of life.

Hope you are aware that Singapore is a multi-cultural, secular country, where religion is very much a personal choice unlike some Muslim countries that I know.

People can be brainwashed to believe that wearing a veil is a sign of freedom of religion and so on. But a little soul-searching and unbiased thinking will reveal truths which one may or may not like to accept.
  Edited by punjini - 17 years ago
zoya786uk thumbnail
Posted: 17 years ago
#12
I would like to make clear that i don't myself wear the hijab or the niqab. The point i was making was that each individual should be able to express themselves.....i.e their religion. Believe me i have many different from friends from various faiths and cultures and i respect their diversity. I'm not too religious myself but i wouldn't comdemn those who do choose to go on the path of their religion. Surely you should tolerate other beings than yourself. Do you find this practice of wearing a niqab babaric.

From someone who says that they have personally viewed women being racially attacked and then we find out she has just copy and pasted from an extract.
punjini thumbnail
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Posted: 17 years ago
#13

Originally posted by: zoya786uk

I would like to make clear that i don't myself wear the hijab or the niqab. The point i was making was that each individual should be able to express themselves.....i.e their religion. Believe me i have many different from friends from various faiths and cultures and i respect their diversity. I'm not too religious myself but i wouldn't comdemn those who do choose to go on the path of their religion. Surely you should tolerate other beings than yourself. Do you find this practice of wearing a niqab babaric.

From someone who says that they have personally viewed women being racially attacked and then we find out she has just copy and pasted from an extract.



I hope you understand the meaning of inverted commas or quotation marks. When sentences are enclosed within these quote marks, it means we are quoting someone. I clearly mentioned that I was quoting from Time Magazine and put the quote within the marks. I can't be held responsible if you make wrong assumptions.

The views of the author corroborated with mine, and it is a very current article, so I quoted from there.

You might think you are being very liberal by saying that everyone should be allowed to practice their religion the way they like it. But please understand that when women choose to put a barrier between themselves and the rest of the world in the name of religion, they are not doing any good to themselves or the society.

Please read the article by Saira Khan that you have yourself posted which describes all that she could achieve because she threw away the veil.

Jack Straw said that he could not communicate with women who wore a veil and that makes perfect sense to me. Women with chadors and burqas can never integrate with society. If they want to wear it, let them wear it but let them not expect to get the privileges that "free women" do.


zoya786uk thumbnail
Posted: 17 years ago
#14
I apologise i didn't quiet see the inverted commas, the reaction of the muslim community was overeacted, i openly admit, even at first i was with Jack Straws views but seems his intentions weren't what he suggested. Unless i'm mistaken Saira Khan never wore the veil, she wore the 'salwaar kameez'.

In some cases i wonder how the blind communicate, does Jack Straw feel them to get an expression. Jack Straw was losing his grip on the white population so thought 'what the heck lets throw this in'. I know the niqab isn't written to be worn in the Quran but it's a personal choice, there not exacly harming others in any possible way!!!!!! I don't think they expect any extra privileges but not to be discriminated, surely it isn't too much to ask
bhilwara thumbnail
Posted: 17 years ago
#15

Originally posted by: zoya786uk

In some cases i wonder how the blind communicate, does Jack Straw feel them to get an expression.


By comparing a physical disability with the niqabbed face, are you implying that just like blindness, a niqab is also something some niqabbed women don't choose to wear but it's beyond their control?
punjini thumbnail
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Posted: 17 years ago
#16

Originally posted by: abhijit shukla

I finally got to reading the article. Straw is Suggesting... not asking to mandate. I gusee he is within his rights to suggest. Just as much as the women in question are within thier rights to wear niqab if they so chose (as long as they do not artcipate in activities that require photo ID). As long as they are aware that some people will find it difficult to communicate with them if they insist upon making that choice and are OK with that, so be it.
If there was a terrorist threat though in the area, Police should be able to mandate exposing face. The government can chose to see that the cops are female but it is not always reasonable to put that extra burden on government that is already under stress of maintining normal business while under terrorist threat. Public safety takes precedence over people's religious or any other sentiments.
Lastly, just as - under normal circumstances - uncovering the face should not be mandated giving women in question the choice, wearing certain cloths should also not be madated. If a person like Sania Mirza wishes to wear cloaths she is most comfortable wearing while doing something only 50 other women on the planet can do better, no one else should decide what she should be wearing either. Freedom works both ways.



👏
punjini thumbnail
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Posted: 17 years ago
#17

Originally posted by: zoya786uk

I apologise i didn't quiet see the inverted commas, the reaction of the muslim community was overeacted, i openly admit, even at first i was with Jack Straws views but seems his intentions weren't what he suggested. Unless i'm mistaken Saira Khan never wore the veil, she wore the 'salwaar kameez'.

In some cases i wonder how the blind communicate, does Jack Straw feel them to get an expression. Jack Straw was losing his grip on the white population so thought 'what the heck lets throw this in'. I know the niqab isn't written to be worn in the Quran but it's a personal choice, there not exacly harming others in any possible way!!!!!! I don't think they expect any extra privileges but not to be discriminated, surely it isn't too much to ask



Zoya, women like you who are liberated must take it upon themselves to educate others that the choice they think they are making is actually something imposed on them without their knowledge. If people like you start supporting those who wear the naqab, there is lesser hope for women to come out of their ignorance and subjugation. How can religion teach a person to keep a barrier between himself/herself and the world?

I am a Hindu but if I see Hindu women following a custom which keeps them aloof from the rest of the society, I will not tell them that they are free to make their choice. I will tell them that they are paving the way for their daughters to never develop healthy, friendly personalities. I will tell them that they are being foolish. It's like becoming blind by choice.

Saira Khan's article is commendable. Thanks to her mother's choices, she was able to become  an aerobics teacher, start a business and engage with society.

Once, when I asked a Muslim friend about this custom, he justified it by saying that by wearing the chador, women were preventing men from committing sin, and were thereby not distracting men! Does this mean that men should not exercise any self-control? Are men not credited with any intelligence - are they mere animals? Actually, the naqab is as much an insult to men as to women.

I rest my case here. I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.




zoya786uk thumbnail
Posted: 17 years ago
#18
Punini your entitled to your own thoughts, if you think in this way i pity that, i'm just more of an tolerant person than you. Surely EijazFan, Punjini herself is an example of discriminating towards women who wear the niqab. I may disagree with you but in some circumstances the niqab should be removed as such:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6046992.stm

Now this is an overeaction of an fellow muslim, they are primary school children!!!!!!!
Minnie thumbnail
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Posted: 17 years ago
#19
punjini and zoya, please do not be disrespectful of other opinions....they are point of view expressed, so please do not run it down. Please do keep phrases like ' you have not met many free women' or 'I pity that' out of the posts....they convey a disrespect. Thanks. Do carry on, it's a very interesting debate. Edited by Minnie - 17 years ago
Minnie thumbnail
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Posted: 17 years ago
#20

Originally posted by: zoya786uk

Thoughts of a British Muslim Woman:

Why Muslim women should thank Straw
Saira Khan

The veil is not a religious obligation — it is a symbol of the subjugation by men of their wives and daughters


MY PARENTS moved here from Kashmir in the 1960s. They brought with them their faith and their traditions. But they also arrived with an understanding that they were starting a new life in a country where Islam was not the main religion.
My mother has always worn traditional Kashmiri clothes — the salwaar kameez, a long tunic worn over trousers, and the chador, which is like a pashmina worn round the neck or over the hair. But no one in my immediate family — here or in Kashmir — covers their face with a nikab (veil). As a child I wore the salwaar kameez at home — and at school a typical English school uniform. My parents never felt that the uniform compromised my faith; the important thing was that I would fit in so that I could take advantage of all the opportunities school offered. I was the hockey team captain and took part in county athletics: how could I have done all of this wearing salwaar kameez, let alone a veil?



My mother has worked all her life and adapted her ways and dress at work. For ten years she operated heavy machinery and could not wear her chador because of the risk of it becoming caught in the machinery. Without making any fuss she removed her scarf at work and put it back on when she clocked out. My mother is still very much a traditional Muslim woman, but having lived in this country for 40 years she has learnt to embrace British culture — for example, she jogs in a tracksuit and swims in a normal swimming costume to help to alleviate her arthritis.

Some Muslims would criticise the way my mother and I dress. They believe that there is only one way to practise Islam and express your beliefs, forgetting that the Muslim faith is interpreted in different ways in different places and that there are distinct cultures and styles of dress in Muslim countries stretching from Morocco to Indonesia. But it is not a requirement of the Koran for women to wear the veil.

The growing number of women veiling their faces in Britain is a sign of radicalisation. I was disturbed when, after my first year at university in 1988, I discovered to my surprise that some of my fellow students had turned very religious and had taken to wearing the jilbab (a long, flowing gown covering all the body except hands and face), which they had never worn before and which was not the dress code of their mothers. They had joined the college's Islamic Society, which preached that women were not considered proper Muslims unless they adopted such strict dress codes. After that, I never really had anything in common with them.

It is an extreme practice. It is never right for a woman to hide behind a veil and shut herself off from people in the community. But it is particularly wrong in Britain, where it alien to the mainstream culture for someone to walk around wearing a mask. The veil restricts women, it stops them achieving their full potential in all areas of their life and it stops them communicating. It sends out a clear message: "I do not want to be part of your society."

Some Muslim women say that it is their choice to wear it; I don't agree. Why would any woman living in a tolerant country freely choose to wear such a restrictive garment? What these women are really saying is that they adopt the veil because they believe that they should have less freedom than men, and that if they did not wear the veil men would not be accountable for their uncontrollable urges — so women must cover-up so as not to tempt men. What kind of a message does that send to women?

But a lot of women are not free to choose. Girls as young as three or four are wearing the hijab to school — that is not a freely made choice. Girls under 16 should certainly not have to wear it to school. And behind the closed doors of some Muslim houses, women are told to wear the hijab and the veil. These are the girls that are hidden away, they are not allowed to go to universities, they have little choice in who they marry, in many cases they are kept down by the threat of violence.

So for women such as them it was absolutely right for Jack Straw to raise this issue. Nobody should feel threatened by his comments; after all, the debate about veils has been raging in the Islamic community for many years. To argue that non-Muslims have no right to discuss it merely reinforces the idea that Muslims are not part of a wider society. It also suggests, wrongly, that wearing the veil affects only Muslims. Non-Muslims have to deal with women wearing a veil, so why shouldn't their feelings be taken into consideration? I would find it impossible to deal with any veiled woman because it goes so deeply against my own values and basic human instincts. How can you develop any kind of a social relationship with someone who has shut themselves away from the rest of the world?

And if we can't have a debate about the veil without a vocal minority of Muslims crying "Islamophobia", how will we face other issues, such as domestic violence, forced marriages, sexual abuse and child abuse that are rife in the Muslim community? These are not uniquely Muslim problems but, unlike other communities, they are never openly debated. It is children and women who suffer as a result.

Many moderate Muslim women in Britain will welcome Mr Straw's comments. This is an opportunity for them to say: "I don't wear the veil but I am a Muslim." If I had been forced to wear a veil I would certainly not be writing this article — I would not have the friends I have, I would not have been able to run a marathon or become an aerobics teacher or set up a business.

This is my message to British Muslim women — if you want your daughters to take advantage of all the opportunities that Britain has to offer, do not encourage them to wear the veil. We must unite against the radical Muslim men who would love women to be hidden, unseen and unheard.

I was able to take advantage of what Britain has got to offer and I hope Mr Straw's comments will help more Muslim women to do the same. But my argument with those Muslims who would only be happy in a Talebanised society, who turn their face against integration, is this: "If you don't like living here and don't want to integrate, then what the hell are you doing here? Why don't you just go and live in an Islamic country?"

Saira Khans Views

It is true that it isn't the norm in the UK to be wearing the niqab, but many other aspects of lifestyle and culture aren't part of the originated british norms, thats what makes us so diverse, its the religion and culture that should be valued

Thanks for the article zoya...it's an eyeopener !!!

I have met many Hindu women from rural areas in India who were forced to wear a goonghat to cover their faces. It is prevalant in many places in Rajasthan even today. Often, it's not the men, but the women themselves who impose these restrictions. Many of these women used that as a weapon to keep the younger women under their control. They are often told that if they do not follow it, they are not acceptable or of good character in their community. It does have a lot to do with power equations in a closed community.

I once knew a family whose eldest daughter in law, an 18 year old pretty girl, was made to cover her head and face and work in the kitchen cooking for 6 grown up men and her mom in law in the swealtering heat of North India. The kitchen was located outside in the courtyard where the sun would beat down the kitchen door with it's relentless heat. She would be covered all over with sweat and look as if she was standing in rain instead of the kitchen and fair as she was, she would look pale and sick.......As a 14 year old teen , I was appalled. When I asked her why she covered her head when no one saw her, she told me that is what a good bahu does, and if her ma in law sees her taking her ghoongat off, she would be mad...

Even today I think of her and think, what would happen if she simply told her in laws that she could not cook with her head covered as it made her sick....would it make her a bad bahu ? Why did she believe that ?

I still haven't understood......