Finally sai speak up - Page 4

Originally posted by: nethraa_99

@laksh I agree completely with you on how change happens only when one wants it from within. But statistically speaking, how many actually change? This is a purely philosophical question. And I ask that question with complete detachment. From what I've seen of life, most people who come from toxic, dysfunctional families either do not change at all or take an enormous amount of time to change. Infact, from what I've personally seen, I would say the odds are 90:10. (I'm talking purely about people from toxic families...if the family is reasonable, many people do manage to break away from the dogmatic beliefs of their families).

There may be a lot of factors why this statistics is so skewed especially in Indian society....the tremendous influence of the indian family, male entitlement, patriarchy, lack of awareness, lack of avenues for help. It's too complex. Very few manage to break out of the toxicity and take personal responsibility, others just develop unhealthy ways to cope and it affects their relationships. Some of these people atleast change when cornered, some not even then. Some change slowly over 30, 40 years. Most of the times, the spouses suffer the most. As depressing as it sounds, this is the reality. A few senior members in the forum have pointed out the same - people rarely change!

In this sense, the show is actually pretty realistic. It holds a mirror to the society the way it is - no frills. I try to understand (out of curiosity) how the writer is trying to bring about the change we are looking for in Virat. What is ridiculous is the sometimes over romanticization of SaiRat (we need to take it with a pinch of salt) as also the loud, crass zillat drama. Sai has been too tolerant and understanding of Virat's shortcomings. She should not be - it is costing her mental peace. This may break the relationship, but so be it. I'm actually curious as to why Sai is staying on - the most dreaded answer will be that in her innocence she has come to value a relationship that may not have a happy ending. Which is also why I'm super pissed at the suicide plot - if someone has to give up her life in order for the spouse to understand something, the relationship is not worth it.

I often try to look at Virat's upbringing when I analyse him - to see him at the recieving end of 'silent' abuse himself - to give context (not justification) to why he is the way he is. Without it, his actions are very difficult to understand. It is definitely possible that my interpretation of him is completely off.

I don't know is if I've managed to convey what I wanted to say....it was too difficult to articulate.

Tagging people who might give their opinions....

I know a lot of people who want to change.. who have changed.. Considering the new gen..the fats moving world.. I am also a person who was known in the family to do anything everything that she is asked to ..by the elders.. and now I am that person who is standing infront of me when I am speaking my mind out or questioning certain rules..rituals.. Trust me I know many who do that.. we are all educated and also come from the generation who have had that curiosity to question the wrongs..I can't buy the argument how many people have done that..I have had an upbringing that's nothing close to what I belive in ..My fiance has tha upbringing which is no where close to what he learnt..We were taught certain things and we understood that they were not correct..with right education and right amt of understanding..i am a year younger to Virat and I still understand what's wrong and what's right at this age..even if it comes from closest of family members...

I am sorry..and also this show is no real..so atleast they can show the ML they introduced stay true to the introduction they have him..This Virat Chavhan is not even 10% of the Virat Chavhan that was introduced in the show..

Originally posted by: asmi_joya

I know a lot of people who want to change.. who have changed.. Considering the new gen..the fats moving world.. I am also a person who was known in the family to do anything everything that she is asked to ..by the elders.. and now I am that person who is standing infront of me when I am speaking my mind out or questioning certain rules..rituals.. Trust me I know many who do that.. we are all educated and also come from the generation who have had that curiosity to question the wrongs..I can't buy the argument how many people have done that..I have had an upbringing that's nothing close to what I belive in ..My fiance has tha upbringing which is no where close to what he learnt..We were taught certain things and we understood that they were not correct..with right education and right amt of understanding..i am a year younger to Virat and I still understand what's wrong and what's right at this age..even if it comes from closest of family members...

I am sorry..and also this show is no real..so atleast they can show the ML they introduced stay true to the introduction they have him..This Virat Chavhan is not even 10% of the Virat Chavhan that was introduced in the show..

Asmi, yes many people do change....which is why I insisted particularly on 'toxic families', not flawed families or conservative families or difficult families or anything under the normal spectrum. From what I've seen of toxic families (and I've seen too many), people don't change easily because they are pretty messed up in a lot of ways. Only a small percentage manage to break the shackles.

Also I'm trying to understand what the writer wants to convey? I expected a steady growth in characters - that is what is engaging in fiction - but we don't have it. Perhaps the writer is trying to convey a different story than what we expect....

Originally posted by: nethraa_99

Asmi, yes many people do change....which is why I insisted particularly on 'toxic families', not flawed families or conservative families or difficult families or anything under the normal spectrum. From what I've seen of toxic families (and I've seen too many), people don't change easily because they are pretty messed up in a lot of ways. Only a small percentage manage to break the shackles. Things will improve in generation after, but right now, it's what it is.

Also I'm trying to understand what the writer wants to convey? I expected a steady growth in characters - that is what is engaging in fiction - but we don't have it. Perhaps the writer is trying to convey a different story than what we expect....

Writer Is copy pasting.. bas ... Till TRPs are up...

Originally posted by: asmi_joya

Writer Is copy pasting.. bas ... Till TRPs are up...

So basically the reason to watch this show then are just Sairat and NeilSha's performance. There is no other reason that we would want to watch this. NO ONE is this toxic. On other shows if the FL is taunted by 1 person, she has 20 people who stand up for her; the FL is the FL and there is awareness of that fact when the story is taken forward in each episode. The ensemble cast gets importance because they are an ensemble cast not because they want to take up the FL's screen space.

Originally posted by: nethraa_99

@laksh I agree completely with you on how change happens only when one wants it from within. But statistically speaking, how many actually change? This is a purely philosophical question. And I ask that question with complete detachment. From what I've seen of life, most people who come from toxic, dysfunctional families either do not change at all or take an enormous amount of time to change. Infact, from what I've personally seen, I would say the odds are 90:10. (I'm talking purely about people from toxic families...if the family is reasonable, many people do manage to break away from the dogmatic beliefs of their families).

There may be a lot of factors why this statistics is so skewed especially in Indian society....the tremendous influence of the indian family, male entitlement, patriarchy, lack of awareness, lack of avenues for help. It's too complex. Very few manage to break out of the toxicity and take personal responsibility, others just develop unhealthy ways to cope and it affects their relationships. Some of these people atleast change when cornered, some not even then. Some change slowly over 30, 40 years. Most of the times, the spouses suffer the most. As depressing as it sounds, this is the reality. A few senior members in the forum have pointed out the same - people rarely change!

In this sense, the show is actually pretty realistic. It holds a mirror to the society the way it is - no frills. I try to understand (out of curiosity) how the writer is trying to bring about the change we are looking for in Virat. What is ridiculous is the sometimes over romanticization of SaiRat (we need to take it with a pinch of salt) as also the loud, crass zillat drama. Sai has been too tolerant and understanding of Virat's shortcomings. She should not be - it is costing her mental peace. This may break the relationship, but so be it. I'm actually curious as to why Sai is staying on - the most dreaded answer will be that in her innocence she has come to value a relationship that may not have a happy ending. Which is also why I'm super pissed at the suicide plot - if someone has to give up her life in order for the spouse to understand something, the relationship is not worth it.

I often try to look at Virat's upbringing when I analyse him - to see him at the recieving end of 'silent' abuse himself - to give context (not justification) to why he is the way he is. Without it, his actions are very difficult to understand. It is definitely possible that my interpretation of him is completely off.

I don't know is if I've managed to convey what I wanted to say....it was too difficult to articulate.

Tagging people who might give their opinions....

I see what you are saying. The truth is people do change. Like Asmi pointed out, the generation, education, work, awareness everything factors in. They help in bring in changes within people.

I disagree with your point of enormous anount of time to change. I have myself seen quite a few people from a toxic family who have changed at a much much earlier age. I have seen many who belong to dysfunctional family too to break the chain and act wise and fair.

Previous generation or people from 2 generations behind have had to live in toxic families and I know many elders from my fanily circle who belonged to such families. You would be surprised as how they have changed looking at the next generation. Their thoughts are not toxic, they have good moral values but have been conditioned to live in a certain way. Unfortunately, their interaction is restricted to people who are almost of the same kind. They don't have a good educational background, haven't worked and yet when they understand what is right and what is not, they bring in changes within them. If this is the case for people from the previous generation, people like Virat belong to this generation who is well educated, has awareness, has stayed away from family and was trained in an academy. It is surprising that he has not tried so far to change himself. Why? Because he is in a safe zone. He gets the comfort that he seeks for. He is making compromises to stay in this safe zone.

Patriarchy is something that has been going on for years, you would be surprised as how mothers or fathers are changing when they look at their own sons or daughters even when they are living in a joint family. Exactly how? When they try to understand the issues of their kids, of their loved ones, when they try to understand various things from their kids perspectives, they are able to extend understanding, want to protest, stand up for their kids against other people in their family. For instance Ashwini did it for Sai when she was refused education, when she was refused entry in the house. Ashwini also has the potential to stand up for others if she really wants. Empathy is the basic factor. Ashwini didn't have to fight for Virat's education or his rights since he was a son. She had no clue about Devi. Most importantly Sai's courage is giving Ashwini also some courage. Sai is her inspiration, she is looking at things from Sai's perspectives in a few things. She herself would support Shivani but might not be able to stand up for Shivani like how Sai did.

So, even elders who feels that their compromise is affecting the kids of the house also break the chain, they also bring in changes within them, they change their own mentality too, change their own expectations.

To be honest, the more you fan these views or customs, the more they will be imposed on you.

There are people who would always be speaking against their son in laws too and blaming the son in laws for everything. Exactly when one has to step in. Because just like how one shouldn't blindly be blaming the daughter in law, they shouldn't be blindly blaming the son in law as well. This is where the next generation people like me play an important role. Gender doesn't matter, all that matters is whether one is being right and fair or not.

It is an even more tricky situation when one has to voice out their views or stand up when the people are from the inlaws family, husband's relatives. If they are people whom you meet once in a while, one can ignore. If there are people whom you have to interact on a daily basis, then ignoring a few things become difficuly. Yes, one has to be respectful, even more careful while they talk to them since anything they speak will be turned against their husband and his parents. But it is the responsibility of the person to express their views or to stand up for someone. It doesn't matter whether they are parent's side or inlaws side. It will be wrong if one doesn't do what they should be doing.

Some people would never develop tolerance until the change is made forcibly. We would only be continuing to encourage them by compromising and staying quiet.

Let me ask you. Many are blaming Ashwini right? I am not saying it is right or not. Looking at a few elders from my own family, I can see where she is coming from. She has had no proper education, got married to a guy like Ninad, her wings were broken, she is always put down, she is treated like a person who has no worth at all. Forget about the place she got married to, how do we know about where she was born and brought up? They will also be people of old school thoughts who would have taught their daughter to adjust, to tolerate, to not raise voice. Can we blame her then? We should blame her family who was responsible for this weak person that she is. Isn't it? This will keep going on. It has to start from some place, from someone. Who better than Virat himself who belongs to this generation, who is the son of the family, who is well educated, is a trained police officer? Virat will be blamed for how his kids will be if his wife was not any person like Sai. This will stop only when Virat brings in changes within him. Hence I had said, no one but him should bring in changes within him otherwise it will be a chain that will continue.

Originally posted by: nethraa_99

Asmi, yes many people do change....which is why I insisted particularly on 'toxic families', not flawed families or conservative families or difficult families or anything under the normal spectrum. From what I've seen of toxic families (and I've seen too many), people don't change easily because they are pretty messed up in a lot of ways. Only a small percentage manage to break the shackles.

Also I'm trying to understand what the writer wants to convey? I expected a steady growth in characters - that is what is engaging in fiction - but we don't have it. Perhaps the writer is trying to convey a different story than what we expect....

@bold they do. Btw the disappointment is why is Virat not one amongst those? Why is he not changing? When will he change? TM topic actually is one of the answers. Virat is not paying enough attention to Sai's issues, he is taking it lightly, is joking and ignoring it while Sai's statement should have ring some bells to him. When her talks should have made him alert.

Originally posted by: nethraa_99

@laksh I agree completely with you on how change happens only when one wants it from within. But statistically speaking, how many actually change? This is a purely philosophical question. And I ask that question with complete detachment. From what I've seen of life, most people who come from toxic, dysfunctional families either do not change at all or take an enormous amount of time to change. Infact, from what I've personally seen, I would say the odds are 90:10. (I'm talking purely about people from toxic families...if the family is reasonable, many people do manage to break away from the dogmatic beliefs of their families).

There may be a lot of factors why this statistics is so skewed especially in Indian society....the tremendous influence of the indian family, male entitlement, patriarchy, lack of awareness, lack of avenues for help. It's too complex. Very few manage to break out of the toxicity and take personal responsibility, others just develop unhealthy ways to cope and it affects their relationships. Some of these people atleast change when cornered, some not even then. Some change slowly over 30, 40 years. Most of the times, the spouses suffer the most. As depressing as it sounds, this is the reality. A few senior members in the forum have pointed out the same - people rarely change!

In this sense, the show is actually pretty realistic. It holds a mirror to the society the way it is - no frills. I try to understand (out of curiosity) how the writer is trying to bring about the change we are looking for in Virat. What is ridiculous is the sometimes over romanticization of SaiRat (we need to take it with a pinch of salt) as also the loud, crass zillat drama. Sai has been too tolerant and understanding of Virat's shortcomings. She should not be - it is costing her mental peace. This may break the relationship, but so be it. I'm actually curious as to why Sai is staying on - the most dreaded answer will be that in her innocence she has come to value a relationship that may not have a happy ending. Which is also why I'm super pissed at the suicide plot - if someone has to give up her life in order for the spouse to understand something, the relationship is not worth it.

I often try to look at Virat's upbringing when I analyse him - to see him at the recieving end of 'silent' abuse himself - to give context (not justification) to why he is the way he is. Without it, his actions are very difficult to understand. It is definitely possible that my interpretation of him is completely off.

I don't know is if I've managed to convey what I wanted to say....it was too difficult to articulate.

Tagging people who might give their opinions....

From my experience, I agree that for people from toxic families, it is really very hard to change. From what I have seen, they are used to the toxicity and it desensitize them. Infact, if someone points out it to them, they usually dismiss it saying the the other person is being over sensitive especially if such eye opening statements are made by spouse.

A person changes only when they are willing to change and this willingness comes only when he/she introspect which according to my understanding, usually lacks in the people coming from toxic family because in toxic family, members are forced or conditioned to follow the head of the family blindly.

Unfortunately, I have seen couples living in such toxic environment initially hold onto each other but with time, they fall apart as the toxicity of their environment seeps into their relationship too. It takes toll on mental peace of the both spouses but still they continue such relationship because of the society pressure, financial problems, lack of family support or sometimes just in the hope that things will change which unaware to them, may take 20-40 years or a full lifetime too.

Originally posted by: laksh

@bold exactly

Also, I feel that Virat has an opinionated view of Sai. He knows her impulsiveness, her temper and I feel that he attributes that nature of hers many a times before coming to a conclusion. What I mean to say is that some issues are overlooked by him due to his judgemental attitude.

I had posted the below comment in one of the threads 2 weeks back may be.

The way I see it Virat has expectations from Sai since she is his wife. As I have said, he expects that Sai lets it go even if Pakhi does something. Also Sai asked her a question like "toh aap Virat sir par nazar rakthi hai". He knows Pakhi instigates Sai but I have always had a doubt if Virat is also being judgmental when it comes to Sai. Sometimes he tries to decipher it from Sai's expressions as what went wrong but when Sai retorts or give such strong comebacks, I guess he stops thinking who started it or who instigated. He only thinks that Sai would have lost her temper, Sai wouldn't have let it go, Sai would have fought with her.

This is exactly why I was very very upset with him during the Devi Harini skit episodes. Because I always had a doubt if Virat has such an opinion about Sai and if that is why he behaves in a certain way, it was proved that day. I really was very disappointed with him. He thought to himseld that Sai doesn't like Pakhi. Some felt that they didn't find that statement wrong but I did because it is this thought that stops him from empathising with Sai like how one should. It is this thought because of which he actually doesnt take a strong stand for Sai against Pakhi.

He knows and acknowledged during the Mohit's lunch issue that Pakhi is the one who starts all the problems. She is the one who pokes Sai. He knew that she always taunts Sai and doesn't behave with Sai like how she behaves with the rest of the family. Shouldn't Virat think that it is because of Pakhi that Sai actually reacts that way. Sai wouldn't dislike Pakhi, I would even now say that Sai actually doesn't dislike Pakhi, she is upset with Pakhi, disturbed with her, affected by her because of Pakhi's behavior towards her. She only has issues with Pakhi's behavior and actions towards her. She has issues with Pakhi interfering in her life and also the personal life between her and her husband Virat. I think you might know that there can be people who can be disturbed by actions of someone, they need not be disliking them. Virat is thinking it from a wrong direction. Had he thought that a girl like Sai wouldn't dislike anyone as such, he will be able to look at things from Sai's position.

The minute he thinks that Sai dislikes Pakhi, he will be made to think that many of Sai's actions are not just are results of Pakhi poking her or instigating her, it is also because of Sai disliking Pakhi.

Hence, when she spoke to Pakhi, he wouldn't have thought if Pakhi did anything really bad for Sai to speak that way. He would think that Sai lost her cool and in her anger spoke that way to Pakhi crossing all her limits with Pakhi.

As I have said, speaking anything bitter to another family member will only worsen things and that is the mindset Virat has and that is why he felt that his Aai knocks some sense into Sai as not to speak that way.

1. He is judgmental

2. His mindset that for family's peace, Sai shouldn't get into any kind of arguments or fights and should ignore it.

And at times like today when both of them are calm too, he is joking instead of trying to understand what has made her tell that food and shelter are her gifts. A few of us had a discussion in the EDT too where Nita had brought out that Virat had not paid attention even when Sai shared how her college mates make fun of her that she is married and she will have many responsibilities. This was on the day she danced at home and they were talking about her participating in the dance.

Even if it was wrong for him to have ignored it back then, now he loves her, he also has got a doubt that she too has feelings for him, he should be at a much better place now compared to the insecured Virat who was jealous of Aniket in that episode and yet, he didn't pay attention that she is having issues in his house.

Everyone have just a few issues with him. He should stand up for his wife when needed, should pay attention to what's happening around him, stay more alert, understand Sai's issues, acknowledge what his family members are doing to Sai as harassment and not some regular family issues and take the issues created by Pakhi more seriously especially when he has seen how much Pakhi hates Sai and what is actually Pakhi's problem with Sai, HIM.

He cannot take whatever is happening in his house any more lightly. He can stop Kaku by just raising his hands when he wants to stop Sai from leaving. From what I know, when Virat really wants, he gets it done. He should want it, he should take an initiative, take things seriously, only then he can put an end to all the atrocities in his house. He is avoiding a certain things, wants to keep in smooth, stays in his happy bubble, and also act biased when it comes to his family which becomes the main issue. As you have said, even if Ashwini has failed to divulge details or has tried to protect him, he has been watching how nasty they can get with Ashwini or Sai or even Mohit. It is time for him to act. He is a police officer for crying it out loud.

Great, great post. I agree with the substance of it, and would add -

1. Virat *knows* (or should) that Pakhi is a complete psycho. It shouldn't even be debatable to him anymore after what he has witnessed up to this point. I first started tuning in around the Ladakh trip, and her losing her mind that Sai was coming too should've tipped him off, like "Damn, she cray." The fact that her aim to find out more about Samrat completely disintegrated when she found out she wouldn't have unfettered access to Virat should be a dead giveaway. And not to mention her constant inappropriate advances despite being his cousin's wife, and her well-documented temper tantrums (e.g. not eating, leaving the house, hissy fit when he didn't want to drink the milk).

What more does he need to see? It's obvious she doesn't care for Samrat at all and just wants to be close to Virat (Sai, Ashwini, and Sunny have now all hammered it into his head too). And yet, he's never fully firm with her, like the stay the f out of our lives and worry about your own, despite her presence being a clear detriment to his marriage and relationship with the rest of his family.

He still regards her as a respectable "mature" (lol!!!) person that he wants to be friends with. And for what? To smooth family tension? That surely hasn't happened. Then "keeping her around" is clearly for selfish reasons (either guilt for misleading her, or more darkly, to have a "just in case" option if things don't work out with Sai, and Samrat never comes back). This should be alarming to any Sairat supporters. It would be more beneficial to everyone, including Pakhi, to have a "clean break" so she can also move on.

2. Virat knows that Sai can be impulsive and outspoken, but he also knows that it is *always* defensive. If CN never insulted her, she'd be pleasant to them. He's witnessed this thousands of times. He's witnessed Pakhi going on the offensive, and Sai responding in kind. So whenever it is that Sai is talking pointedly, it can be assured that it is in response to something rude that was said to her, and he, as a decorated officer, should be able to recognize this obvious pattern. As you correctly state, Sai never dislikes anyone for no particular reason. Whereas he's now seen CN's psychopathy (e.g. Bhavani giving up Devi's child, and the antics to keep Pulkit from her; Omkar bribing people; Ninad's abuse to his mother), so Virat should *always* give Sai the benefit of the doubt, instead of cowardly trying to reason with both sides, and allowing the CN side to arrogantly grandstand despite Virat knowing that Omkar should be in jail. There are no "both sides" here. One has given ample evidence that they're straight up evil, and so there should be no confusion from him.

3. Virat is the most powerful member of the family. If he says anything at all, they won't speak up to him and therefore he has the ability to bend the family interactions to his will. That's what's most frustrating about all this - he easily can stop Pakhi from even talking to them (which is the logical approach now that she's completely unhinged), and can remind CN of their crimes (that he knows) if they start to misbehave with Sai. Over time, they'll know not to mess around, and peace will ensue. He uses this ability at times when it suits him, but not to create a harmonious environment for his wife to live in. Which betrays a selfish nature.

Ultimately, he's written as a dumb coward, and since Vankar, et al. need this series to stretch out for years, this will unfortunately continue.