Jodha Akbar 34-36: Shaahi Shaadi - Page 9

Originally posted by: sashashyam

My dear Bindu,

Your comments are, as always, well considered and well expressed, and I would say the same even when, as is the case with your take on Jodha's behaviour, I do not agree with you!😉

My comments below in blue will be about Jodha and the other points you have made here.

I was waiting,thnx for the reply😊

Shyamala Aunty

Devki my dear,

Thanks a lot for liking this one so much.

My fingers are already very tired and are beginning to hurt but I did not want to leave your comments unanswered.

I would draw a clear distinction between Jodha burning of the shaadi ka joda barely minutes after her mother had laid out some plan home truths to her about the consequences, for Amer, of her backing out of the wedding, and the sharts. The first was an act of heedless irresponsibility without a thought as to what would happen to Amer as a result of her act. I do not want to repeat myself, but do see my response to Preeti and Bindu on page 9 above if you have the time.

The second was a stratagem that was not quite well thought out, and if Jalal had been as black-hearted as Jodha takes him to be, might have backfired on the lines discussed by me in the post, ie a return to the status quo ante with Sharifuddin. Do see my response to Donjas' rather enticing theory about the sharts, it is on page 3 and is quite interesting.

Either way, I am not at all inclined to cut Jodha any slack over all this, mainly because of her badi badi baatein to Bharmal about being willing to do anything for Amer. When the time comes to walk the talk, there is no indication that she had any thoughts to spare for Amer. Her sole pre-occupation is with herself. I do not admire such self-centredness when it not frank, but is cloaked in high sounding bhashans.

As for whether there were in fact any such sharts, I would be inclined to say no. The historical record seems to indicate that Hira Kunwari did convert to Islam (after all she was buried, not cremated) even though she continued to practise Hindu rituals inside the Agra palace. Ashutosh Gowarikar did say in one of his inteviews that the idea of the sharts was a fabrication of his. I suppose Ekta borrowed it from the film, and made it far more peremptory.

In any case, how does it matter what really happened? One can always believe what suits one, there is nothing wrong in that!😉

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: devkidmd

Wonderful analysis Aunty. Love love love all these Shaadi episodes.

Ok, I am going to play defence attorney here. Yup, Jo's defence attorney.😉 Her behavior may not be the most graceful and princess like but is totally understandable for a normal human being, princess or otherwise.

I agree with you and others that what Jodha did, i.e. burn the joda and then the shartein was very stupid and immature but... I cannot discount her feelings and her emotional turmoil in the situation she is faced with.

Think about it:

*Jalal comes into Amer in disguise, makes an utter fool of not only her but her whole family, kills a bunch of soldiers. All this is unprovoked.

*The Mandir incident where not only did the soldiers loot but also molested Mothi bai.

* The Amer war when Surya lost his life.

Now we know that the last two were not Jalal's doing but for Jodha and the Ameris it is the Mughals and that means Jalal. The leader is where the buck stops. Good or bad. He gets the credit and the brickbats.

This intense hatred that she feels for him is not unfounded.

In this situation how else is she going to behave? She is having a serious panic attack. She is completely trapped. It is fight or flight for her now. She knows that her family has made its decision and they are in no position to change it. She is alone, alone and alone.

All her commonsense is out of the window.

For her Jalal is the Jallad and not someone that she even respects.

For us it may seem extremely unreasonable and stupid. But for Jodha her feelings, her fear, her revulsion towards this whole affair is very very real. She is the proverbial sacrificial lamb and she ain't going down quietly. 👏 I hope the real Jodha gave a good fight to the real Akbar too.😆

The reason Bharmal is giving her so much space and making her understand as to what her actions could lead to and not just dragging her to the Mandap and marrying her off is because he himself is not feeling good about this whole transaction.

The shartein, it may not have been so dramatic in real life but I do think there is something to it. There is a strong possibility that Jodha asked for her religious freedom before the marriage happened. There is no way that Akbar offered it to her on his own. And I don't think Bharmal was in a position to ask for anything except for his son and nephews and protection from Sharif.

Devki

My dear Bindu,

There is a little confusion here. When one says he slapped the other chap down bluntly, it does not mean that he slapped the other chap, but only that he shut him up, which is what Bharmal does to Jodha when she starts arguing with him about the Suryabhan-Sukanya marriage, as usual ignoring the fact that Suryabhan wants to marry her, not Sukanya, and equally important, that Bharmal is counting on this marriage to strengthen Amer's hands against the Mughals.

Typical of Jodha's total disregard of her father's political reasons for the alliance, and her disobedience of her father's orders, is the way in which she still meets Suryabhan privately and says she is not willing to marry him as Sukanya wants to marry him. What if he had taken her at her word and simply walked off, which is what most princes in his place would have done? Bharmal would have been left high and dry vis a vis the Mughals.

But that is Jodha all over, and here again she tries to sabotage her father's plans, camouflaging her real intentions under a lie, that she would do nothing to affect his honour or Jalal's. The very fact that Bharmal does not know what his daughter is going to do is a blot on his image as a father and as a king.

Jodha, my dear, is a namoona. It is tough work to be logical and still defend her.

As for your @bold, yes, Bharmal feels guilty, but that does not stop him from stating the case to her in such terms as to make impossible for her to refuse. That is the same thing as frogmarching her to the weddng, it is only done more softly.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: Bindu_nhbr

Regarding my previous reply to Preethi,I never said,reel ones are in 21st century,they are very much from 16th century and all the references you provided are bang on.But,I don't remember Bharmal slapping Jodha.

Still,do you think the reel Bharmal could have acted differently?Can he force Jodha into this marriage ruthlessly like any other 16th century father would do when he himself reacted in such a way to the proposal in front of Shehanshah.He feels guilty for placing his daughter in such condition.This is what I meant when I wrote abt the reel vs real.

Originally posted by: sashashyam

My dear Bindu,

Your comments are, as always, well considered and well expressed, and I would say the same even when, as is the case with your take on Jodha's behaviour, I do not agree with you!😉

My comments below in blue will be about Jodha and the other points you have made here.

I was waiting,thnx for the reply😊

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: sashashyam

As for whether there were in fact any such sharts, I would be inclined to say no. The historical record seems to indicate that Hira Kunwari did convert to Islam (after all she was buried, not cremated) even though she continued to practise Hindu rituals inside the Agra palace. Ashutosh Gowarikar did say in one of his inteviews that the idea of the sharts was a fabrication of his. I suppose Ekta borrowed it from the film, and made it far more peremptory.

In any case, how does it matter what really happened? One can always believe what suits one, there is nothing wrong in that!😉

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: Bindu_nhbr

Aunty,

Thanks for such a marvellous analysis of astounding Shaadi and pre-wedding stuff😊

I enjoyed reading ur post and others' views on these set of episodes thoroughly.

Keeping aside all the characters for a while,I must say all the actors were fairly good in these episodes including mithai wala and his assistant😆

Jo's brothers except BD, were not up to the mark and Ashwini's expressions were lil OTT😔

Paridhi and Rajat were so good that no adjectives are enough to praise.For me,they are the best couple onscreen and compliment each other very well.

You've described everything perfectly and I have nothing to add aunty.I didn't give much thought to the aftermath of Jodha burning Shaadi ka joda and her 2 conditions until I read ur post.

You rightly said that she forgot her statements made earlier to her baapusa and acted unwisely.She must have thought of Amer's future and the consequences of her act.

But like few other friends,I too feel she could not be blamed entirely.She was ready to marry anyone irrespective of their age,looks,nature etc provided,he is a Rajput and could gift her Jalal ka sar thus helping Amer.(She failed to perceive the strength of Jalal or may be she had high confidence in fellow Rajputs).

She acted responsibly as a princess and comforted her father.This shows her respect and immense trust she has on Bharmal,but doesn't relieve Bharmal & Co from their responsibility.

She might not have thought that her father had chosen this path to save Amer when she stopped him from mentioning the name of veer yogdha.She is deadly against marrying a mughul,that too jallad whom she loathes.(even though he is extremely charming and dashing who has invaded her mind from the time she saw him at the Gangaur😉😆)

So,her reaction is not that unwarranted,IMO.She was deceived by her family and enraged by Maham's attitude later.All those jewels and gifts infuriated her more and reminded the insult they were subjected to by mughuls.Everything was so unexpected,disturbing and shocking to her.(I'm glad she burnt that dress.The so called unique and special one was nothing when compared to the one she wore😆)

By the way,Abhay has mentioned that the date of birth of MUZ mentioned on the internet is wrong.It was in mid 1546 and not 1542.

Her two conditions for marriage was actually a planned and calculated move unlike the burning of Shaadi ka joda.May be,she thought Jalal wouldn't harm Amer if he himself backs off from this alliance.

One thing is clear to Jalal now,she is not an ordinary princess or like his other begums who die for his one glimpse.She will not give up without putting up a fight.

Jalal made clear to Jodha that he will get what he wants,no matter what.

I feel Jalal wouldn't have waged a war on Amer even if he had to back off as he doesn't want the name of Rajputs to be given a higher place in the history.He fears this more than the damage to Mughul's fame which is evident from his conversation with badiammi.

Of course,Jodha doesn't know what Jalal thinks,so I'm not sure whether she believed they could continue their support to Mughul Sulatanat without any relationship or she failed to think of Amer.

I agree with everything else aunty like Maham's impatience to slap Adham amidst the marriage preparations and others.

I hate this Maham😡 and once again Jalal was shown dumb.He should've doubted Adham's over action.

Another interesting point that was raised by someone on Harshu's thread is Sharif's behavior.No where he feels jealous or enraged for not being able to marry Amer ki Shehzadi.He is only irritated with Hindu's rituals and jealous that Adham was given a chance to perform ritual but not him.Only after few days,he starts scheming against Jodha-Jalal and we all know his stupid acts later.

The whole shaadi looked every bit a shaahi one and I just couldn't take my eyes off from the gorgeous couple just like Jalal did with Jodha😉.

The last scene b/w Jalal and his cute little saalis was lovely and as u said,so much of hungama, for juthis was unnecessary.

hi donjas

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Devki my dear,

Thanks a lot for liking this one so much.

My fingers are already very tired and are beginning to hurt but I did not want to leave your comments unanswered.

I would draw a clear distinction between Jodha burning of the shaadi ka joda barely minutes after her mother had laid out some plan home truths to her about the consequences, for Amer, of her backing out of the wedding, and the sharts. The first was an act of heedless irresponsibility without a thought as to what would happen to Amer as a result of her act. I do not want to repeat myself, but do see my response to Preeti and Bindu on page 9 above if you have the time.

The second was a stratagem that was not quite well thought out, and if Jalal had been as black-hearted as Jodha takes him to be, might have backfired on the lines discussed by me in the post, ie a return to the status quo ante with Sharifuddin. Do see my response to Donjas' rather enticing theory about the sharts, it is on page 3 and is quite interesting.

Either way, I am not at all inclined to cut Jodha any slack over all this, mainly because of her badi badi baatein to Bharmal about being willing to do anything for Amer. When the time comes to walk the talk, there is no indication that she had any thoughts to spare for Amer. Her sole pre-occupation is with herself. I do not admire such self-centredness when it not frank, but is cloaked in high sounding bhashans.

As for whether there were in fact any such sharts, I would be inclined to say no. The historical record seems to indicate that Hira Kunwari did convert to Islam (after all she was buried, not cremated) even though she continued to practise Hindu rituals inside the Agra palace. Ashutosh Gowarikar did say in one of his inteviews that the idea of the sharts was a fabrication of his. I suppose Ekta borrowed it from the film, and made it far more peremptory.

In any case, how does it matter what really happened? One can always believe what suits one, there is nothing wrong in that!😉

Shyamala Aunty

OK, Donjas, if the tomb argument is so weak - but I thought it was Jahangir who had her buried there as per her explicit desire, and built the tomb in her honour, so that, it was added, she would be close to Akbar in his tomb in Sikandra - by all means let us bury it!!😉😉

Personally, I don't care a hoot whether she converted to Islam or not, or whether there really was a Jodha--Akbar amar prem kahani or not. I have enough to do analysing what Ekta dishes out to us for as long as my rheumatism lets me!

Shyamala

Originally posted by: Donjas

I believe everyone has the right to believe as they wish, but this 'tomb' argument is so weak, I had to comment. A tomb does not mean burying, there could be false tombs or tombs containing some ashes rather than the body or nothing at all in the tomb.

There are so many explanations. Even many Hindu Kings had tomb like structures constructed, does this mean they converted to Islam before they died. These are chatris, built in their memory, not tombs. That is made quite clear.

if the 'Tomb' argument was anywhere near explanatory, then this doubt of some over whether Hira Kunwari converted or not would not have been there, they would have clear cut answer.I was told that she wanted to be buried so as to be close to Akbar even after her death.Take it or leave it, but if you take it, it leaves the conversion question still open.

Even today when scholars argue over whether Hira Kunwari converted or not they give the argument of Islamic interpretation of marriage, then don't go into the tomb issue, because they know it is not a valid argument. There is also an Islamic tenet that a man cannot have more than 4 nikaahs but Akbar seems to have exempted himself from that. So perhaps he did the same for his Rajput wives as regards the prior need for them to adopt Islam for their marriages to be valid. Who knows?

Originally posted by: sashashyam

OK, Donjas, if the tomb argument is so weak - but I thought it was Jahangir who had her buried there as per her explicit desire, and built the tomb in her honour, so that, it was added, she would be close to Akbar in his tomb in Sikandra - by all means let us bury it!!😉😉

Personally, I don't care a hoot whether she converted to Islam or not, or whether there really was a Jodha--Akbar amar prem kahani or not. I have enough to do analysing what Ekta dishes out to us for as long as my rheumatism lets me!

Shyamala

Thank god EK did not give Rajat's Akbar one. That would have ended the love story before it even began.😆😆😆

Devki