Originally posted by: vijisridhar
So Sujamal was known as Surajmal is it..?
As much as I like both your views, there seems to be a difference here. Which one is correct..? afterall, someone has done PhD and is being taught so in colleges.
I think, it will be nice if Abhay comes here to rescue us from the confusion.
Thanks
Viji
@Abhay,
Thanks for confirming yaar. But can u put any light on the current track? I hope MUZ is not as irritating as Jodha being shown in last few episodes.Is there any reference about Jodha helping Sujamal (and not telling truth to akbar)?Please tell us that MUZ has much better thought process than this current track Jodha.😕 Now the spoiler about Jalal asking forgiveness to Jodha is not gud. I hope along wid his apologies, Jodha would also say sorry to Jalal.I am waiting for the day she accepts that she is a Mughal begum and not a biased Rajvanshi.- Krishi
Originally posted by: history_geek
For your points in bold.
My dear this is something which is a total falsification of the history.
I wrote this ONE line statement about HK and Sujamal, b'coz i have READ something about their relation.
I need not read what the scholars have written about them coz my info comes directly from many well-established sources.😊
I am too much pre-occupied right now. But there are EVIDENCES as per actual history.
1. Sujamal was the bravest of all Amerians, this is as per HK's viewpoint.(though unfortunately he was denied the throne.) My friend Lizzy is missing from the forum, otherwise she would have given more info on this particular statement, with references from Indian historical Records itself.
Records mention of incidents of Rakhi ceremony between Suja and HK.
And such documentation i have NOT read for any of her another brothers, but ONLY Sujamal.😊
So, the clause that historically they did not share any affectionate brother-sister relation is not correct. Coz i and many others have read this.
No matter where Suja resided is other issue but they DID have a great bro-sister relation.
And he can NOT be an outcast because he was the son of the princess of Marwar and they commanded great respect and WERE powerful as well.
Bharmal was NOT a moron that he would take the risk of sidelining the strong Marwari Clan.
Btw, Even Bharmal was the son of Rajmata Bala Bai(another princess of Marwar only.😉)
2. Secondly, this word "outcast" is very serious term. Every one is NOT an outcast..!. .
In one your earlier posts you had referred MUZ as an outcast in her OWN family of Amer.😕
Yes, that article you had posted was ALSO from an article from Internet Site, named -> "The Real Mariam Zamani". 🥱
If she was an outcast in her own family, then.?..
I do not understand why Akbar sent his son Daniyal to the family of MUZ who was SAID to be an outcast in her own FAMILY.?..????>...😉 (as per that article.??...)
Was Akbar NOT worried about security of his son.?.😲...That he sent his son to the family of MUZ in Amer to be brought up IF SHE was an outcast in her OWN FAMILY..😕.??..😲
What i want to say is..::::::--->>>>
Some issues and SOURCES should be CheckeD as far as REAL history is concerned.😊
Secondly since, i read just now mentioned about a trip to Jaipur Fort, then i feel this issue of outcast would have been cleared. As she was NOT an outcast. This term is not suitable here.😊
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And regarding your point that Amer had NO heir after Puranmal.
I have an interesting Event to share.
Also This issue of NO heir after Puranmal is not correct.😊
Suja was son of Puranmal.
Puranmal died 19 Jan, 1534.
Succeeded by Bhim Singh, his bro, who died 22 July 1537.
He was succeeded by his son Ratan Singh, died 15 May 1548, killed by saazish of his Step bro Askaran.(this is DOUBTFUL)😕 Askaran was crowned on 16 May 1548. But sat on throne only for 15 nights and 16 days.🤓
Askaran went on a pilgrimage for 11 years after this. And returned around 1559. So, he had very less to do anything with Suja or Amer family.😊
Later during Akbar's time, Askaran was made the ruler of Naarwaad/Naarwaar.(Akbarnama,V3, Page-925)
After Askaran, Bharmal was made the King on 1/2 June 1548. He died 17 Jan 1574.
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Also, the story which is mentioned in the post about that heir-less thing is not correct.
This CURSE is not associated with Puranmal.😊
The issue arised EITHER after the Battle of Chittor in 1567/8 or after the battle of Haldighati in 1576. And, the reason given is that, the Amer Clan had supported Akbar in both the battles.
Infact, the advice of Bhagwan Das was very important in getting through the STRONG fort of Chittor for Akbar. Bhagwan Das knew what was the strategy needed to cross the Strong Fort of Chittor.
And, hence Amer Clan got "shraap or curse"🤓 from the Mewar clan, for helping Akbar.
Though this is said to be a story.
But this is NOT associated with Puranmal as you mentioned in your post.😊
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Also, the info in your post that Sujamal DID NOT meet Sharifuddin is also NOT correct.
Sujamal DID MEET Sharifuddin.
Akbarnama , Volume 2 , Page-241, Chapter 39
And, many other contemporary chronicles like Rajputana Gazetteers, etc..😊
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Also, few days back it was shown that Sujamal occupied Mewat from Mughals.
Yes, this was ALSO a TRUE event.
Sujamal with the help of few forces of Marwaar(called Land of Death), and handful of Bhils defeated Mughal Forces.
The event was very much TRUE.
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@Shweta
Yes. Man Singh had many sons, and his son Bhav Singh succeeded him to the throne after his death on 6 July 1614. He was son of his Queen Rani Sahadra Gaur.
Though some foreign authors say Man Singh to be a adopted son.!.
But, even i have read the same what you have, as per ROYAL RECORDS, Man Singh is mentioned as the son of Rani Bhagwati Ji Sahiba, the Queen of Bhagwan Das. 🤓
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Btw, in your reply you mentioned that Hk was around/less than 5 years when Sujamal was banished. May i know the DOB of HK .?.😊
Finally, Suja and HK had a good relation.Is all i want to say .!.BTW,, i have verified many foreign sources on Indian History and pretty much sure now, where is the difference. The depth upto which Rajputana history runs is NOT easy to dig. 😊
Rest is upto others to believe or neglect.
I would have given more views on the info shared in the post but due to lack of TIME and sources right now, stopping here.😊.
Link of this post.:
https:// www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=3959686&TPN=3&#p103330410
Originally posted by: history_geek
Welcome.
Check your inbox in some time.😊
Originally posted by: myviewprem
Bharmal was NOT a moron that he would take the risk of sidelining the strong Marwari Clan.
Btw, Even Bharmal was the son of Rajmata Bala Bai(another princess of Marwar only.😉)
Like i said this is from neutral sourcesAgree but from where do these neutral sources come from.?. They also read the Indian Literature and then compile it. So, the EVENTUAL POINT from where the info comes is SAME..
Regarding Surajmal Singh and Hira Kunwari having a great brother-sister relationship i have not come across any doc where they both ever met or tied rakhi or he thought her sword fight etc. This is all creative liberty. Surajmal always stayed with his maternal grandmom home with his mother not at amber. Hira Kunwari and Surajmal never met after childhood as he was legitemate heir(eldest grandson of Prithviraj) He never attended/called any ceremony of family as he always stayed with maternal grandparents etc. But Surajmal was not a bhagoda like potrayed in serial and his father was good friend of Humayun. I am not sure what indian sources say?? Someone pls check and inform
I already mentioned in my post, read more and one will get sources which mention about HK-Suja. This sword fight etc. issue was not mentioned in my post . But yes sources DO say about that Rakhi incident.about them, and even say about HK's view that Suja was the bravest among all Amerians. And, they DID share good relation. Rest issues about Humayun and his friendship is a well-known fact. This was not mentioned in my reply.
BTW, for your points in bold, as you asked about some resources to VERIFY the claims. I am myself giving you the resources from Rajputana History. If possible read them also along with Foreign "neutral" sources.
1. Miraat-i-Ahmedi
2. Akbarat, this is a rare chronicle. I got to know about this from a Friend, This is available in Raghuveer Library in Malwa and in Jaipur State Archives.
3. Hukumat-ri-Baehi, this is a chronicle which contains information about Marwar.
4. Vansawamnli, by Jan Alam, this is in Persian. Contains specific info about Amer kings.
5. As you read Western scholars more, another book is there, Political History of Jaipur.by Col. Brooke.
6. Gulshan-i-Ibrahimi, Persian Chronicle
7. Jaipur State Records In Persian, 5 volumes
8. Translated Jaipur State Records, in Hindi, 6 Volumes
9. Khayat'h' of Rajasthan
10. If you need, i can give more records.
But, NO matter what, foreign sources can NEVER give as much DEPTH about Rajputana History as the Indian Sources themselves. And, also i do not understand how can they be called NEUTRAL, because if they are compiling anything they also use those SAME INDIAN RESOURCES..!!..Bharamal anyways never gave Surajmal the throne back that he was made gaurdian off. So when it comes to property/throne no one thinks of marwar etc. Anyways why Bharamal will be scared of marwar when his son in law is emperor akbar the great?? Bharamal mother was 4th wife of Prithviraj while Purnamal was 1st wife son. So all mothers want their children and grandchildren to get throne not their step sons and their children.
I do not understand why is this info mentioned again in the reply. I already cleared this issue in my reply. BTW, thanx for this information. And here i would like to mention that out of all queens only 3 were chief queens.
a. Bala Bai, the mother of Bharmal.
b. The daughter of king of Mewar, Rana Raimal Singh.
c. Rani Suhaag
Even out of these the influence of Rajmata Bala Bai was the MOST.!.
Coming back to issue here. It is well known that Bharmal ascended the throne though it belonged to Sujamal.BTW, my dear let me write why i gave a mention of Marwar here. This was not my thinking but what the accounts give us. Marwar and Mewar were two very powerful kingdoms of Rajputana in first half of 16th century. Rana Sangram Singh defeated Amer and forced Amer to pay tribute to Mewar. And, Marwar and Mewar were hand in glove as Rana Sangram Singh of Mewar and Rao Ganga Ji(of Marwar) were good friends and fought battles together. This was a RARE display of unity among two Rajput Kingdoms. So, i mentioned WHY Bharmal was clever enough to keep things BALANCED without getting in trouble with Marwar .!. And, Akbar DID NOT become son in law of Bharmal in first half of 16th century.😆. The event happened only in 1562. So, remember the timeline😊. Here we are discussing pre-1562 events. And before that it was Bharmal only who managed everything NOT Akbar..
Can you mention how many years did daniyal stay in amber? As per history when MZ went to amber once there was uproar in court that the mughal princess was going to amber.
First a correction..She was NOT a Mughal Princess but a Rajvanshie princess.!!..
BTW, may i know WHY Daniyal was sent to Amer if she was an outcaste.?.😃. Yes, i know there was an uproar in court but that was because of the reason that the ulemas accused Akbar of giving LARGE FREEDOM to his Hindu Wife.😉 And, she was hated by the other Rajputana Kingdoms due to the fact that she was held in high regard by Akbar. She was NOT an outcaste in Amer ITSELF..!!!...Hope this clears the issue..!!..If not then the foreign sources are not of any help here. The best research material is available in Rajasthan State Archives.Regarding outcast i am not sure what word to use. Any rajput princess who married mughals usually converted on day of marriage as nikaah cannot be performed without accepting islam. They were buried as per muslim traditions. Only inside their house agra fort etc they worshipped Hindu gods or followed their customs. For outside world they were known by their muslim titles and names like shah begum, taj bilqis, mariam uz zamani. etc. MUZ was incharge of haj ships if she was not aware of those things she would never been incharge of those things. Also she built many mosques etc.
There is a DIFFERENCE between "any" queen/ "all" queens etc. Also since you mentioned Nikaah cannot be done without accepting another religion. Then i would like to mention few events..If she converted why Abu'l Fazl talks of Hindu Begums in Ain-e-Akbari and Mughal Begums differently.?. Why Abu'l Fazl mentions that Akbar faced more than 72 revolts as he ACCEPTED HINDUISM TO BE FOLLOWED IN HIS CLOSE HINDU CIRCLE. Also, by mentioning this issue of conversion we are questioning the religious tolerance of Akbar.
BTW, many things are NOT permitted in "their" religion, BUT Akbar DID EVERYTHING..!!..
He prayed to Hindu Gods. And their idols which is the BIGGEST SIN as per their religion. (Bigger than the issue of conversion in marriage). He celebrated Hindu festivals. He even organised the biggest Puja of Durga/Ambe Maa(a Hindu deity in Agra). He also had a temple in the Diwan-e-Khas in Agra in FS. He also had a hawan kund in the joint palace of him and MUZ in Agra.
So, going by the same logic can we say that Akbar also became a Hindu. Anyways, i am clear with the issue and AFTER reading very well many accounts can conclude that She followed her faith in the harem. And, remained a Hindu. And, when this news leaked to the staunch conservatives their was chaos. And, hence Akbar faced so many revolts due to this.
As you mentioned MUZ constructed mosques for giving weight to the claim of her accepting other religion. So, going by same logic, Akbar also ordered construction of temples. So, did he became a Hindu.?, Also, Man Singh and Bhagwan Das constructed mosques in their respective subas.. So did they also changed their faith going by same logic.?.
Finally, i would say, It is even recorded in Debistan-i-Iqbal. This chronicle contains some of the religious TALKS going in Ibadat-Khana(Hall of Worship) in Fatehpur Sikri, where Akbar used to have religious discussions. Even this thing is in records that he used to ward off many theories of the ulemas regarding religion. He was also a practical person. It is written for Akbar that HAD he NOT been an Emperor, he would have been assasinated by going by the acts he did.
What i want to say is that despite every possible religious issue, She carried on her faith. This is very much clear to ME, and i arrived on this conclusion, not by any one source but reading a lot..I am very much clear about the customs, which are mandatory,😉 but he was NOT a BY BOOK/strict follower of his religion.😊He was liberal (and at times harsh also.)
Regarding burying the queens, i want a add point here. Does burying someone proclaims the religion.?.😊..If you talk of burying then i also have a point with me. MUZ's tomb complex in FS contains a "chattri" there. And, presence of Chattri is a custom near the cremation site of Hindu/Rajvanshies.!. Coz first they were cremated and at that place the chattris were installed. So, going by this theory can i say that she was cremated FIRST, after that the tomb came up.?.😉 Also, She is the ONLY Hindu Begum whose tomb contains a "Chattri", which is a symbol of Rajvanshie traditions of cremation.?.😊
Note: I said before also, my points are NOT from one or two sources but after endless digging from many places and from many PEOPLE.
Religious discussions are NOT allowed in the forum, otherwise i can add and add here.Hence i stop.😊
The rajputhana customs of those times were highly rigid and to maintain their status in eyes of citizens the rajput rulers would not eat with their muslim relatives(which included their daughters who were married). This was not only for Hira Kunwari for everyone who married muslims. The rajput princess also rarely or never visited their maternal family usually after marriages. This was more of social issue. Also the rajput in order maintain purity of their race never allowed their sons to marry muslim royalty women. They gave away their daughters in marriage to mughals to save their kingdoms to avoid wars etc but not marry the mughal princess.YOU are going out of the topic.!.This is getting more into religious discussion. I have written a NOTE above and would stick to it.
I have read this CLAUSE many times that the Rajput Princess married in Mughal household rarely visited their ancestral place.!!...This is USED to show them in lesser light.
Though it is a FLAWED ARGUMENT..!!..🥱 given by so-called scholars.
BTW, I have a SIMILAR question.?😃. How many Rajput princess who were married in Rajput kingdoms itself visited their ancestral homes.?.😉..And how many times.??...How much was the frequency...?...?...
If you get time, do find on this issue also...!!...
Only thing i mentioned is before reading or believing what any scholar says one should VERIFY and think also..
As i mentioned before, this statement does not holds any concrete meaning..!!!!!!...I did not say that the curse is associated with purnamal but i just felt someone must research on that, I already mentioned that the curse was also associated to patta in chittorgarh seige. Personally i do not believe in curses that last for 20-30generations??
My reply was for your comment in your main post. You mentioned this in your post.
"Now there is a curse in Jaipur family they do not have male heirs after Purnamal.
"
And you asked to research on this. Hence i mentioned the event which led to this curse story. And i made a statement in good regard NOThing to take this serious.Like i mentioned in my article surajmal wanted to meet akbar and akbar was a minor at those times. So he may have met shariffudin to discuss the matter but he never went to war against akbar as shown in movie along with sharifuddin.Neither he plotted with sharifuddin etc.
Ok...I am re-quoting you lines..You said this in your main post.
"
So Surajmal decided to meet Akbar who was Humayun's son as his father Purnamal and Humayun were friends and request justice. But he never met/joined Sharifuddin or Adam Khan
"
Due to the lines above in BOLD. I mentioned in my earlier reply that Sujamal met Sharif, as you said that Sujamal did NOT.!.Regarding askaran he was desposed as king by people of amber after a week or two after he took throne by killing ratan singh and bharamal was made caretaker king as surajmal was a minor.I already mentioned this about Askaran in my reply earlier. Again quoting.It was the act of Nobles.
Suja was son of Puranmal.Puranmal died 19 Jan, 1534.Succeeded by Bhim Singh, his bro, who died 22 July 1537.He was succeeded by his son Ratan Singh, died 15 May 1548, killed by saazish of his Step bro Askaran.(this is DOUBTFUL) Askaran was crowned on 16 May 1548. But sat on throne only for 15 nights and 16 days.skaran went on a pilgrimage for 11 years after this. And returned around 1559.Later during Akbar's time, Askaran was made the ruler of Naarwaad/Naarwaar.(Akbarnama,V3, Page-925).After Askaran, Bharmal was made the King on 1/2 June 1548. He died 17 Jan 1574.Like i said before Surajmal was rightful heir to throne that cannot be denied. Bharamal broke his promise and did not make him king after he turned adult or even crown prince as bhagwan das was made crown prince that also cannot be denied. Rest all is just side irrelevant story like jodha-surjamal rakhi story. If jodha was such a great sister she must have told akbar to give justice to surjamal by making him king or atleast married his daughter to jehangir instead of bhagwandas? When it comes to property, crown etc your family counts first not some cousin brother. So its obivous they had no rakhi relation as potrayed in serial/movie.
Thank You for the comments.😊 And there is NO point stretching over this issue that What Jodha COULD HAVE done and what she DID NOT.?.
But the facts can NOT be negated. And i have given some NAMES of chronicles. If possible search and read.
Sujamal-Jodha story is NOT a hatched one. I have written it.
This was a neutral point of view. Surajmal was a good person and so was his father purnamal. In terms of loyalty purnamal was first in establishing ties with mughals - humayun, bharamal just followed purnamal's path. The story of surajmal or isolation of rajputh princess after marriage etc all they are correct. Maharan pratap himself banned rajputh kings from marrying those families who married into mughals, pratap refused to have food with man singh when he visited pratap for peace treaty etc, one king wanted to kill jehangir and mota raja udai singh for marrying jodh bai etc. So what rajputh's thought about rajputh's giving their daughters to mughals is very well documented.
Rofl...Above points are totally out of topic..😆.!. So, you mean to say that what Rajvanshies thought of such marriages..??...We all know...The show itself has shown this...But the point you seem to have missed is that MUZ was NOT an outcast in HER OWN CLAN.!. If you read more contemporary accounts you will get to know how much was the frustration against her for being a close one of Akbar..!!...😆
Puranmal and Sujamal, etc. were good and fine. No doubts on it. BUT the story of isolation of ALL Rajput princess is NOT at all CORRECT. The problem in the above comment is that things are generalized rather than digging them separately. It is well known that Maharana Pratap was an adversary and till the END stood for his IDEALS. Salutes to that warrior. But what is the point bringing this discussion here.??..🥱...This has nothing to do with Sujamal..🥱..I want to stick to the topic..Anyways regarding isolation of Rajput princess after marriage in Mughals, i have written before in my reply that,
How many Rajput princess who were married in Rajput kingdoms itself visited their ancestral homes..😉..And how many times...How much was the frequency...
If you get time, do find on this issue also...!!...
Only thing i mentioned is before reading or believing what any scholar says one should VERIFY and think also..
As i mentioned before, this statement does not holds any concrete meaning..!!!!!!..If you remember those days were different and daughters visited their ancestral places less compared to present times. And this statement is just a flawed logic to decry their status..
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