Israel & India - Page 2

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Prarara thumbnail
Posted: 17 years ago
#11
My goodness, I sure hope that the Indian Defense Ministry doesn't subscribe to some of the above said opinions. Let me restate this, Israel is being the aggressor. It is acting like the archetypical Austria of WWI or Germany of the Fraco-Prussian War. In both cases, the said nations used fallacious reasons-one the death of a person at the hands of a terrorist, and the other a land-qualm-to start a gruesome and bloody war. Germany won its cause, but Austria launched the world into the bloodiest war it had seen yet; but I digress.

Israel has, in the past, always defended its nation from aggressors; in the War of Independence, in the Six-Day War, and in the Yom Kippur War, Israel was always the defender. In the current case, Israel is attacking a bombing and attacking a nation, not for the crimes of said nation, but for a terrorist group that has little relation to the national government of that nation. The Lebanese have lost quite a few, and internationally, they are being viewed as the victims to unwarranted Israeli aggression.

Similarly, India has always been the defender. We've always won against Pakistani aggression, and the corresponding drop in public opinion for Pakistan has been proportional to their acts against India. Now I understand that it is frustating to have to deal with the seemingly constant terrorist attacks on Indian shores, but if we overreact like the Israelis are doing, then we will create a larger breeding ground for terrorism. I mean, look at what Israel is doing now; it feels that the petty actions committed by Hezbulla(sp?) warrant the violation of a nation's sovereignty, and by attacking Lebanon, it has created an even larger pool of contempt and hatred for Israel amongst the Lebanese and throughout the Arab World. Why Hezbulla is taking to the streets? it's because public opinion in Lebanon, which was never really for Hezbulla, has now become more for it. When the Lebanese see their nation's infrastructure being destroyed, they will naturally turn against the aggressor; Hezbulla now has enough support to mount an open campaign against the Israelis.

Now comming back to India, if we did the same to Pakistan, the Pakistani public opinion would turn so much against Indian soldiery that these terrorist groups would thus be able to mount open campaigns against our troops. We would be viewed as the aggressor, and despite whatever reasons we use, which we cannot prove beyond all reasonable doubt, the terrorist groups we seek to destroy would only garner more support.

Remember we are combating an Ideology, and in order to vanquish an ideology of hatred you need to combat it with something that will not add fuel to the fire.
Prarara thumbnail
Posted: 17 years ago
#12
[quote]So as per you prara..we again have to do what Ghandi and Nehru did.
Let people die and nation divide in the name of religion and terrorism.
This problem is not isolated in one part of India. it is in East , west north & south.
Yes we have been defender but to a limit. Attacking a nation's parliament gives you no reason to be a mere defender. that is like being a coward.
I am not sayin that go and attack, but yes India has to make it clear that we are not sleeping.
If India was active, kargil would not have happend. TO create pass and make army camps to attack from the height of margils..is not one day jobs but takes years. Our congress was sleeping. They finally attack and we had BJP gov then. I think we had a better capable defense miniter then.
otherwise being attacked from top..how much chance you have to survive???? Now all this happend under our nose and what India did..just fought when they attacked. Why our CBI could not see that Pakistan is doing something fishy and warn them????? May be by stopping trade??[/Quote]

I don't know, you tell me. Ineptitudes in the Indian Adminstrative circle are no excuse for taking overtly aggressive action against Pakistan. Sure, lets build better defenses, but attacking Pakistan openly and destroying their infrastructure and such is sure folly.

[Quote]As solid snake said, we have to make them aware that we are watching their moves. We need to be more aggresive. The amount of people we are loosing, it is better to loose them in battle field and get ti over with.
If all other countries that want to stop terrorism, stop trade with countries that fund terrorist, half of their back we have broken. If they cannot fund..what will they do? start attacking wealthy people (Which are mostly leaders) country will realize that hey were milking serpants. [/Quote]

Right, so we have to stop trading with the Arab oil behemoth-sure let's do that, but for it to happen we need to research alternative fuel sources and we need to stop using petrol. Take that away and we will be able stop some terrorism. However, as I have mentioned in my posts, we should not declare war on Pakistan and blockade their ports-that is folly. Not trading and developing the fuel sources and such by ourselves will do more to ending terrorism than any attack on a 'terrorist-harbouring nation'.

[Quote]What ever solution we find has to be aggressive.
Prara, it is easy to say this, but when you loose a loved won while fighting on the border, or while travelling becomes a victim..the views change[/quote]

I said this earlier, but if saying this 'validates' my views then I'll say it again. I used to live in Kashmir, the village I lived in got bombed by the Mujahadeens, and a good family friend that lives in Kashmir has recently gone missing. Further, 17 members of my family died in terrorist attacks during partition in Bangladesh. I know very well the singe of losing someone; revenge is certainly prevalent, but I feel we need stronger defenses rather than open attacks against our neighbours, however unneighbourly they are. I still like to think that we have some moral superiority to those who wish to destroy us; we must not plummet to their levels. Edited by Prarara - 17 years ago
Aparna_BD thumbnail
Posted: 17 years ago
#13

Originally posted by: Prarara

revenge is certainly prevalent, but I feel we need stronger defenses rather than open attacks against our neighbours, however unneighbourly they are. I still like to think that we have some moral superiority to those who wish to destroy us; we must not plummet to their levels.



πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘ Very well said Prara !!
smartypant thumbnail
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Posted: 17 years ago
#14

Originally posted by: Aparna_BD



πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘ Very well said Prara !!


πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘That was gr8.
Aparna_BD thumbnail
Posted: 17 years ago
#15

Originally posted by: Iron

Although I pity Saddam now after nothing was found)



I know this is absolutely off topic , but i had to say ..........WHATTTT?????

You pity that man who commited genocide on his own people..........the people of Iraq??????????????? Yes he may have not had connection with Bin Laden but he commited mass murder on Iraqi people and he is getting what he deserves.
Prarara thumbnail
Posted: 17 years ago
#16
[Quote]ANd yes we need to take better precaution and for that our leader, our agency and cbi has to work for the country only, As I said too that what ever is happening is not one day of job. If all of us stop thinking for our benefit only and see collectively of defending out country and its people and have tighter border, I am sure thses attacks will drop drastically and we will emere as more stronger and a threat to outside countries

I also think, these kind of terrorist are basically very weak. Till you face them they will rule. Once you fight them, then they hide..just like bin laden or Saddam (Although I pity Saddam now after nothing was found)
SInce it is hard for thme to survive withour any aid, so by stopping some of the trade by all the countries, will make them financial weak. Yes we all have to suffer for that, but are we not already suffering???
I know it is not a practical idea but will not shed blood. No matter what defense you take, theere will be blood shed [/Quote]

India is already a threat to outside countries. The reason that terrorism is so prevalent in India is because no country can wage aggressive open war with India-especially the Middle East Countries (with the except of Israel maybe). Terrorism is an instrument of fear. It does not have the real economic and millitaristic ramifications of a war; as you have said the only way to strangle terrorism is cut of the cash the funds it. For this, I believe the faster we can find an alternative fuel source that is not concentrated in the Middle East, the sooner we will see the bankrollers of terrorism fall.

Off course, then the Middle East will become a festering abject poverty stricken region-much like Africa-though not as bad.

[Quote]The teaching of Gandhi/ nehru are not for today.[/Quote]

Were they ever for any day? There were always critics of Nehru and Gandhi, and there will always be critics of Nehruvian/Ghandian politics and principles. Nonetheless, I believe that we need to act as pragmatists and take those teachings that will ensure the safety of a democratic India. A democratic India that Nehru and Gandhi helped to build; we don't have to practice 'nonviolent protest against the terrorists', but we shouldn't give up on our democracy as well-which I am sure you wouldn't have in mind. Edited by Prarara - 17 years ago
SolidSnake thumbnail
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Posted: 17 years ago
#17

Originally posted by: Prarara

revenge is certainly prevalent, but I feel we need stronger defenses rather than open attacks against our neighbours, however unneighbourly they are. I still like to think that we have some moral superiority to those who wish to destroy us; we must not plummet to their levels.

Why shouldn't we in first place make them stop these attacks, why build defenses and wait to be attacked? We 'll be perfectly justified in taking any course of action (including military if necessary) to achieve that goal, and forget about internation reaction, everyone has double standards. Jisko lagti hai usi ko dard pata hota hai.

What use moral superiority is when our innocent citizens are losing lives in most inhuman ways, infact our political leadership has long been using this superiority to hide its cowardice and inaction. If someone keeps attacking your home you don't just keep quite, you retaliate. If you don't, don't blame the culprit, you deserve it.

SolidSnake thumbnail
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Posted: 17 years ago
#18

Originally posted by: Prarara

Now comming back to India, if we did the same to Pakistan, the Pakistani public opinion would turn so much against Indian soldiery that these terrorist groups would thus be able to mount open campaigns against our troops. We would be viewed as the aggressor, and despite whatever reasons we use, which we cannot prove beyond all reasonable doubt, the terrorist groups we seek to destroy would only garner more support.

Which planet are you living on? Seriously! Why on earth should we give a damn to what Pakistani public opinion is about our Soldiers. And you think Pakistani public loves Indian Soldiers currently? Are we going to ask our enemies what they think we are? Aggressors?πŸ˜† And mind you it is the Pakistani Establishment that funds, trains and supports these creatures!

SolidSnake thumbnail
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Posted: 17 years ago
#19

Originally posted by: Prarara

India is already a threat to outside countries

Will you please stop making such idiotic comments please.

The reason that terrorism is so prevalent in India is because no country can wage aggressive open war with India-especially the Middle East Countries (with the except of Israel maybe).

Whoa! Why should any ME country wage a war against India?πŸ˜• The bottomline is that Pakistan uses Terror as a weapon against India bec'se they know that they don't stand a chance to win an open war and also bec'se they know that our thresold limit is pretty limitless😑.

I think we should make it clear to Pakistan that military options (military option != war) are available to us if they continue to support terror. Bahut ho gaya ab!

SolidSnake thumbnail
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Posted: 17 years ago
#20

Even Washinton Post now says How Much Will India Endure?

How Much Will India Endure?

Pakistan Needs to Respond to Militants

By Xenia Dormandy

Wednesday, July 12, 2006; Page A15

Yesterday's awful rush-hour bombings of trains in Bombay raise an important and ominous question: How far can India be pushed?

In December 2001 India and Pakistan almost went to war when a group of militants, based on Pakistani-controlled territory, attacked the Indian Parliament, killing nine people. India's response was to mobilize forces along its border with Pakistan. Predictably and understandably, Pakistan followed suit. The U.S. State Department ordered all non-vital personnel out of both countries, and the world prepared for what could well have been the first war ever between two nuclear powers.

But due largely to extensive, active and exhaustive mediation by central figures from the West, tensions were ratcheted down, and in time forces were demobilized.

This time, it is not the West that needs to show leadership but the two countries themselves. They need to back up their words with actions. The leaders of India and Pakistan stated in April 2005 that "the peace process was now irreversible"; unless they both take action, this is now in question.

Three years ago, at first very quietly and with great sensitivity, India and Pakistan launched what was called the "composite dialogue." The subjects ranged from economics to land to water to drugs to security. While many have suggested that these talks are going nowhere, they have led to some small but tangible progress.

You might raise your eyebrows, but even "cricket diplomacy" has helped. Over the past two years, numerous matches in both countries have opened the eyes of the Indian and Pakistani populations to one another. They have found that those on the other side often think like them, look like them and even enjoy the same games.

More traditional benefits have also spun out of the dialogue. For the first time in more than 50 years buses are traveling between India and Pakistan, including across the Line of Control splitting the old state of Kashmir. Trains were recently started, and trucks, too. Visa restrictions have been relaxed, the militaries meet regularly, and, most notably, after the massive earthquake that struck Pakistan last October, India was one of the first countries to respond with offers of assistance (although the time taken to agree on the mode delayed action considerably).

This is all good. What hasn't happened is arguably even more impressive. Despite an attack on a religious complex in Ayodhya last July, again by militants based in Pakistan, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh announced that the dialogue would continue.

But -- and here's the crux of the matter -- how long can India, Indians and the Singh government withstand the constant pressure from militant groups before they have to react? By any measure of international diplomacy, they've already been extraordinarily patient; compare their restraint with Israel's response to the kidnapping of its soldier or to the U.S. and Japanese responses to North Korea's missile tests.

Now is a moment when Pakistan really needs to respond. It wants to be taken seriously as an important player on the international scene. It has repeatedly asked the United States for a nuclear energy deal similar to the one we are working on with India. But until Pakistan -- and this means not only President Pervez Musharraf but also the military, the people and the political parties, including the religious party, the MMA -- gets serious about shutting down, arresting and otherwise dismantling the militant groups that operate from its territory, it cannot expect to be treated as a responsible player in the region. Pakistan is working on it, but it could do so much more.

A good -- or at least stable -- India-Pakistan relationship is one of the most important elements for long-term global stability. Given that both are nuclear powers, their region is one of the most dangerous in the world. And with attacks such as this, it is also one of the most volatile. India has taken great strides to tamp down this volatility. Pakistan needs to do more.

In return, India would need to step up in a real, substantive way on bilateral issues such as Kashmir. The third round of the high-level composite dialogue taking place next week, assuming it is still on, is the place to do it.

The writer is executive director for research with the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. She has served as director for South Asia at the National Security Council, a post she left last August. The views expressed here are her own.