DOTM#2 : Arjuna's skill defines heroism more than Karna's integrity - Page 5

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Posted: 4 months ago
#41

Originally posted by: e1t53e

Arjuna chose Dharma that’s why Krishna chose him. Krishna would’ve chosen Karna or even Duryodhana if they decided to go on the path of Dharma but then he wouldn’t have had to put up with Kurukshetra😆…It is always the bhakt seeking out the God. God is there for everyone but it is upon us to choose Him as our guidance.


Yehi to bola tha maine smiley36

Krishna ji ne karna ko to draupadi ki humiliation ke baad bhi mauka diya tha dharm choose karne ka but Karna ko apne aap ko victimize karne ki aadat ho gayi thi

Krishna ne karna ke deathbed pe unhe samjhaaya bhi tha jab Karna ne kaha ki life was unfair to me that's I went on wrong path, krishna ne kaha tha ki meri life tumse zyada unfair thi tab bhi dharma hi satya raha unke liye

And dekha jaaye to Mahabharata mein almost sabki life unfair hi rahi hai, totally depends on the person's choice

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Team Arjun

Posted: 4 months ago
#42

More words of Shri Krishna about Arjuna,


I spoke these gentle words to the insensible Ashvatthama. ‘He is regarded as the supreme one among gods and humans. He is the wielder of Gandiva, the one with the white horses. The supreme of apes sits astride his standard. He is Jishnu. He defeated and satisfied Shankara, the one with the blue throat and Uma’s consort, the god who is the lord of the gods, himself in a duel.20 There is no other man on earth whom I love as much. There is nothing that I cannot give him, even my wives and sons. O brahmana! He is unblemished in his deeds. Even such a well-wisher like Partha has never spoken such words to me earlier, the likes of which you have spoken.21

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Posted: 4 months ago
#43

First of all sorry for late reply and thanks for tagging

I have a completely different opinion from most.. I don't think I fall in any group here just want to pen down my thoughts


I don't think it was Arjun's skills that actually took him to the heroic position. To be honest I don't even think the composer even viewed Arjuna as the hero. The story was always of Yudhisthir, his journey, his misery, his decision, his virtues and ends when he gets his destination.


The reason we are seeing Arjun as hero is because he possesses all the qualities we want to see in our heros (and note, those do not actually define a hero, it's our imagination on what the hero should be). Arjun is a fearless warrior, he respects his elders but also speaks when they are wrong, he loves his wife, doesn't shy away from showcasing the soft side which other warriors feel are effeminacy (like his skills of music and dance) is the best friend of God himself to whom He decided to give the absolute knowledge. He is invincible (at least till the time of war the time till which most know the story about)

What else can we expect a hero to do? Right...

This was the reason why it's always that Arjun becomes the hero for us.

But do we ever wonder why it is so?? Isn't Nakul also proud of his charm and looks? Isn't Bheem a great warrior too? Doesn't he love his wife enough to kill Keechak for protecting her even if it could blow their cover despite his brother asking not to? Why isn't Sahdev and his wisdom ever talked about?


While I completely understand that Arjun was really great, but the reason why we feel him to be the hero is because despite Mahabharata being the journey of Yudhisthir, it was Arjun about whom we get to know the most. The reason for it according to me is pretty simple. Mahabharata as we know is a narration of those events to someone by Vaishampayan.. who is that someone?? Janmejaya, the great grandson of Arjun. Now think of it, when you are hearing a story of your ancestors, whom would you like to know more about?? Your direct ancestor or his brother/cousins??

Yes I agree every character was given its due because at the end of the day it was itihas and had to be told the way it was. But obviously while other's life was just glanced upon, each heroic of Arjun was explained in details. Even Arjun abducting Subhadra(great grandmother of Janmejaya) which wasn't anyway a more important event than say Nakul marrying Karenumati was explained in such a detal. Same as Abhimanyu Vadh, while definitely a sad moment, but was definitely not sadder than the deaths of others in their families especially in a war, yet it was only the grief after his death that was explained in such detail (others are passing references even that of someone as important as Ghatochkach - a theory states that his character was given prominence in Gupta period but that's for other time)

This is because Vaishampayan knew what will interest Janemejaya more. While Arjun's accomplishment was celebrated by him, even the vices of Arjun like the burning of KhandavVan which killed umpteen innocent animals and birds just to please Agni as some really good thing.


I think when knowingly or unknowingly so much importance is given to a character, he obviously will supersede and take the central position that makes him the hero of a story which isn't even his.


Now coming to Karna, I don't think he ever had any moral dillema or even a principle to stand for. There was only one sole objective of Karna, which was to defeat Arjun and prove his superiority. For him actually nothing mattered more.

He claimed he was a real friend of Duryodhan willing to do anything for him yet let him to die at the hands of Gandharva to fend for himself during Goshala Yatra. Denied to fight for him in war under Bheeshma only so that Bheeshma doesn't get credit of his heroics.

Contrary to the population opinion, even his principle of Dana wasn't something always followed to the core. He didn't give away his Kawatch kundal in daan, rather he explicitly traded him stating he would not part away from these unless Indra gives him a infallible weapon. He never had a moral dillema and was always sure at ease on what he is doing. Never did he lament his ills, not even at the end when Krishna reminded him of those.

Undoubtedly he was wronged, he might have even known by himself that he isn't a Suta but a nobel born by his strength which might have put him depressed, but even post that his life was better than majority population. He got to study from the best of teachers, he got to rule a state. His overlord actually took him as the go to man. It was his issue that he only focused on his problems and not the blessings.

To be honest I think had Kunti not abandoned him, his life as an illegitimate child would have been all the worse.


There was absolutely no reason why Karna should have been the hero. His skills were less than Arjun, his whole personality was defined by his obsession to Arjun, he was from the side of the losers and the story was being told to someone who was from opposite side (thereby by their perspective)

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Posted: 4 months ago
#44

Originally posted by: RamAayeHain


Yehi to bola tha maine smiley36

Krishna ji ne karna ko to draupadi ki humiliation ke baad bhi mauka diya tha dharm choose karne ka but Karna ko apne aap ko victimize karne ki aadat ho gayi thi

Krishna ne karna ke deathbed pe unhe samjhaaya bhi tha jab Karna ne kaha ki life was unfair to me that's I went on wrong path, krishna ne kaha tha ki meri life tumse zyada unfair thi tab bhi dharma hi satya raha unke liye

And dekha jaaye to Mahabharata mein almost sabki life unfair hi rahi hai, totally depends on the person's choice

@bold this part isn't there in Mahabharata. He is beheaded and dies immediately he was never on a deathbed.


Yes life was unfair of everyone even Duryodhana. So that excuse made for Karna is the lamest one

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Posted: 4 months ago
#45

Originally posted by: Wistfulness

Karna and Duryodhana were friends because they both benefited from it. If I were to sum it up in general terms, Karna was a mere sidekick to the antagonist and often instigated Duryodhana to fuel his his own sadism. When Shakuni advised his nephew to return Indraprastha, it was Karna who advised him against it.

Not to forget that incident in which coward Karna fled after leaving Duryodhana at the mercy of Gandharvas. Again, it was he who had suggested a visit to the forest to mock the suffering Pandavas.

Daanveer is another propaganda narrative. He did NOT donate his armour and earrings. It was an act of trading it in exchange for an indestructible weapon to kill Arjuna. That was the level of Karna's obsession with killing him.


Vaisampayana continued, "When the illustrious slayer of Paka refused to ask for any other boon, Kama with a smile again addressed him, saying, 'O god of gods, even before this, I had recognised thee, O Lord! O Sakra, it is not proper for me to confer on thee any unprofitable boon, for thou art the very lord of the celestials! On the contrary, being as thou art the Creator and lord of all beings, it is thou that shouldst confer boons on me! If, O god, I give thee this coat of mail and ear-rings, then I am sure to meet with destruction, and thou shalt also undergo ridicule! Therefore, O Sakra, take my earrings and excellent mail in exchange for something conferred by thee on me! Otherwise, I will not bestow them on thee!'


I've stated it before that Dronacharya hadn't rejected him. He merely refused to impart the knowledge of Brahmastra because he could see Karna's wicked intentions.

I don't think Duryodhana's friendship was to serve goals. They were friends since childhood when Duryodhana didn't know his capabilities.


Aside if it was only for his goals he wouldn't have ignored Karna leaving him to die and Gosala Yatra and would have forced him to join the war under Bheeshma when he denied.


The mere fact that Duryodhana never put him forward or force him to act him get his desire shows that he genuinely was fond of Karna and there was no reason of selfishness in it. The same can't be told about Karna though. His friendship was definitely tainted with selfishness (although I do feel there were genuine feelings but yes there were some elements of selfishness too)

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Posted: 4 months ago
#46

Off topic this suddenly has reminded me of 1st COVID lockdown days. We like discussed Mahabharata for hours discussing theories, our thoughts and articles...


One of the best memories of lockdown

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Posted: 4 months ago
#47

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

@bold this part isn't there in Mahabharata. He is beheaded and dies immediately he was never on a deathbed.


Yes life was unfair of everyone even Duryodhana. So that excuse made for Karna is the lamest one


Ohhh, I have never read Vyaas' Mahabharata, but I have read this conversation in many other books so I thought it happened

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Posted: 4 months ago
#48

Originally posted by: RamAayeHain


Ohhh, I have never read Vyaas' Mahabharata, but I have read this conversation in many other books so I thought it happened

Yes I know it's often discussed at many places. But doesn't actually happened anywhere in Vyasa like the instance of Karna sending Arjun's rath back by two inches and Arjun by 20 where Krishna appreciates Karna


BTW what's your opinion on my POV on this debate as I shared

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Posted: 4 months ago
#49

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yes I know it's often discussed at many places. But doesn't actually happened anywhere in Vyasa like the instance of Karna sending Arjun's rath back by two inches and Arjun by 20 where Krishna appreciates Karna


BTW what's your opinion on my POV on this debate as I shared


Yess that one I knew was not mentioned smiley36, I soon jab to read Vyaas' Mahabharata warna meri aadhi baatein fiction pe hi based rahengi smiley36


B-I will read and reply smiley20

Edited by RamAayeHain - 4 months ago
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Posted: 4 months ago
#50

Originally posted by: RamAayeHain


Yess that one I knew was not mentioned smiley36, I soon jab to read Vyaas' Mahabharata warna meri aadhi baatein fiction pe hi based rahengi smiley36


B-I will read and reply smiley20

Sure. I would be waiting for your inputs

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