DOTM#2 : Arjuna's skill defines heroism more than Karna's integrity - Page 4

Originally posted by: Quantum-Dot

Talking about Karna's moral integrity, sharing a few points regarding this.

Karna's unwavering loyalty to his friend Duryodhana is one of his defining traits. Despite knowing that Duryodhana's actions and intentions were often morally questionable, Karna stood by him out of gratitude for Duryodhana's acceptance and support when society shunned him. This loyalty was rooted in a deep sense of gratitude and honor, as Duryodhana was the only one who recognized Karna's worth and abilities, making him the king of Anga. Karna was known for his unwavering commitment to his promises. For instance, he promised his mother, Kunti, that he would not kill more than one of her sons, ensuring that she would have at least five sons alive after the war. Karna was renowned for his generosity and was often called "Danveer". The most notable instance of this is when he gave away his divine armor and earrings to Indra, who came disguised as a Brahmin, knowing well that this act would leave him vulnerable in battle. This act of charity exemplified his willingness to give away even the most precious things he owned. Also, despite being rejected by Dronacharya once, Karna never showed disrespect towards him. When Kunti revealed to him that he was her first-born son, Karna was deeply conflicted. However, he accepted his fate with grace and chose to fight for Duryodhana, the man who stood by him when no one else did. This decision highlights his integrity and commitment to his own principles and values, despite the personal and emotional turmoil it caused. These illustrate Karna's moral integrity, showing how he consistently upheld his principles of loyalty, generosity, and respect, even in the face of immense personal challenges.

Karna and Duryodhana were friends because they both benefited from it. If I were to sum it up in general terms, Karna was a mere sidekick to the antagonist and often instigated Duryodhana to fuel his his own sadism. When Shakuni advised his nephew to return Indraprastha, it was Karna who advised him against it.

Not to forget that incident in which coward Karna fled after leaving Duryodhana at the mercy of Gandharvas. Again, it was he who had suggested a visit to the forest to mock the suffering Pandavas.

Daanveer is another propaganda narrative. He did NOT donate his armour and earrings. It was an act of trading it in exchange for an indestructible weapon to kill Arjuna. That was the level of Karna's obsession with killing him.

Vaisampayana continued, "When the illustrious slayer of Paka refused to ask for any other boon, Kama with a smile again addressed him, saying, 'O god of gods, even before this, I had recognised thee, O Lord! O Sakra, it is not proper for me to confer on thee any unprofitable boon, for thou art the very lord of the celestials! On the contrary, being as thou art the Creator and lord of all beings, it is thou that shouldst confer boons on me! If, O god, I give thee this coat of mail and ear-rings, then I am sure to meet with destruction, and thou shalt also undergo ridicule! Therefore, O Sakra, take my earrings and excellent mail in exchange for something conferred by thee on me! Otherwise, I will not bestow them on thee!'

I've stated it before that Dronacharya hadn't rejected him. He merely refused to impart the knowledge of Brahmastra because he could see Karna's wicked intentions.

Edited by Wistfulness - 5 days ago

Originally posted by: Lostin90s

Karna having integrity is the most laughable thing i have read today on this forum. Karna instigated Duryodhan to strip Draupadi because he was apparently hurt from her rejection. Furthermore, he participated in the killing of weaponless Abhimanyu. I guess these incidents and many more are overlooked by many while analysing his character.

Karna glorification rests chiefly on novels, folklore, and TV serials.

A footnote in the Gita Press edition claims that he wasn't rejected. He just failed to string the bow. However, even if he were rejected and felt humiliated, making excuses for his disgusting instigation is equivalent to justifying the acid attacks in current times.

Arjun, did not only possess superior skills, but also made good use of them. He was not rash to unnecessarily use divine astras unthinkingly (like Ashwatthama). Nor did he use his skills to support sinners (Karna, Bhishma, Drona, Ekalavya). Arjun was not only a warrior, he was a tapasvi, whose control over himself was supreme, as we see in the case of the apsara Urvashi in heaven.

Thus, Arjun’s greatness comes not only from his archery skills, but the way in which he approached archery as a whole. Karna thought of archery as his ticket to power, while Arjun thought of archery as worship, utilizing it for the good of humanity.

Team Arjuna all the way🙏🏻

Originally posted by: Wistfulness

Karna glorification rests chiefly on novels, folklore, and TV serials.

A footnote in the Gita Press edition claims that he wasn't rejected. He just failed to string the bow. However, even if he were rejected and felt humiliated, making excuses for his disgusting instigation is equivalent to justifying the acid attacks in current times.

Yess i also read that.. also the part that Karna instigated Duryodhan to kill Pandavas in forest when Shakuni advised him to return Indraprastha and.. tbh Shakuni was less evil than Karna..

Shakuni came out evil during Dyut Sabha.. even before that he tried to pacify Duryodhan to not get jealous of Pandavas but when didnt listen he helped him but Karna insitaged him since childhood.

As promised, from passages of Mahabharata, virtues of Arjuna.

Arjuna is able recall Brahmashira, which only Indra could do.

Vaishampayana said, ‘O tiger among men! On seeing those two energetic ones,36 who were like fires, Dhananjaya quickly withdrew his divine arrow. He joined his hands in salutation and spoke to the best of rishis. “This weapon was used by me to pacify the other weapon. Once I withdraw this supreme weapon, all of us will be destroyed. It is certain that Drona’s son, the perpetrator of wicked deeds, will consume us with the energy of his weapon. The two of you are like gods. You should think of a means so that we, and all the worlds, are saved.” Having spoken these words, Dhananjaya again withdrew his weapon. In an encounter, it is difficult for even the gods to do this.37 With the exception of Shatakratu himself, no one other than Pandava was capable of withdrawing a supreme weapon, once it had been released in a battle. Once invoked, it was full of Brahma’s energy. With the exception of someone with a cleansed soul and someone who was a brahmachari, no one else was capable of withdrawing it. If a person is not a brahmachari, and having released the weapon, wishes to withdraw it, the weapon will sever his head, with that of his descendants. Arjuna had followed the vows of a brahmachari. He had obtained a weapon that was difficult to get. However, he had never invoked it, not even in a time of great calamity. Pandava followed the vows of truth. He was brave and a brahmachari. He was obedient to his superiors. It was because of this that Arjuna was capable of withdrawing that weapon again.

Edited by devashree_h - 5 days ago

A debate comparing the merits and exploits of Arjuna and Karna in the Mahabharata would require profound understanding and eloquence, qualities exemplified by sages and poets like Vyasa and Kalidasa. As far as I know, there isn't anyone alive, let alone on these forums, who can even remotely rival the authorship and insights of legends like these, adept at analyzing the moral and ethical dimensions of the characters’ actions.

As feeble as it would be, the best we could do is proffer a bulleted list, so here goes.

Divine Support:

First and foremost, Arjuna had the constant support and guidance of Lord Krishna, which played a crucial role in all his successes. Arjuna's divine connections also were much more extensive and varied giving him a range of weapons and support. He was blessed (and richly rewarded) by Goddess Durga, Lord Shiva, Indra, Agni and a few more. Even Hanuman gave him protection with his Kapidhwaja. Arjuna was pretty much Vijay (victory) personified.

Other than Surya, I am not aware of any Gods / Goddesses supporting / blessing Karna.Indra did give him a divine weapon but only after he took away Karna's invincibility.

Advantage: Arjuna

Astras:

Both Arjuna and Karna possessed formidable Astras.

Arjuna had access to (knowledge of) Pashupatastra, Brahmastra, Vaishnavastra, Agneyastra, Varunastra, Vayavyastra and more.

Karna had access to (knowledge of) Brahmastra, Bhargavastra, Nagastra, Vayavyastra, Agneyastra and, probably above all, Vasavi Shakti given by Indra as a boon which could kill any foe no matter who.

Some of these weapons cancel each other leaving Arjuna with Pashupatastra and Karna with Vasavi Shakti. If they had used these on each other, Arjuna would probably end up killing all and Karna in turn would have ended up killing Arjuna.

Advantage: no one in particular

Tools and equipment:

Arjuna had Gandiva Bow, an inexhaustible quiver and a divine chariot. Karna had Vijaya Bow. When Karna runs out of arrows or loses his chariot, he has to find time to replace them.

Advantage: Arjuna

Conquests:

Arjuna’s Rajasuya Campaign vs. Karna's Digvijaya Yatra

Both Karna and Arjuna's campaigns were driven by the need to establish the supremacy of their respective sides, such as, Karna for Duryodhana and Arjuna for Yudhishthira. The outcomes of these campaigns were similar in terms of expanding influence, securing alliances, and accumulating wealth.

Advantage: no one in particular

One-on-one battles:

Arjuna's victories were often guided by Krishna's wisdom but if we keep that aside for a minute, Arjuna fought against the likes of Bhishma, Drona, Karna, Duryodhana, Kripacharya, Shalya while Karna fought against the likes of Arjuna, Bhima, Abhimanyu, and the rest of the Pandavas.

Arjuna wan't too keen on fighting with Bhishma or Drona (hence the Gita!) and likewise Bhishma or Drona couldn't have killed Arjuna because he was their favorite.

That leaves Arjuna besting Duryodhana and Kripacharya while Karna bested Bhima, Yudhistira, Nakula and Sahadeva.

What needs to be noted here is that Arjuna didn't beat Duryodhan in a mace fight while Karna did beat Bhima in a hand-to-hand combat that involved various weapons.

As for direct confrontation between Arjuna and Karna, if we only talk about the 17th day of the Kurukhestra war, the final duel was evenly matched by "all accounts". Karna's curses did catch up with him by then but that shouldn't take away from his valor, strength and skills.

Advantage: no one in particular (but willing to debate more if required)

Skills and Training:

Arjuna was trained by the legendary Dronacharya, while Karna was trained by Vishnu'a avatar of Parashurama, one of the greatest warriors and teachers of the time. Both Arjuna and Karna were exceptional archers.

Advantage: no one in particular

Natural born advantages:

Karna was born with the Kavacha (armor) and Kundala (earrings) granted by his father, Surya, which made him nearly invincible until he donated them in charity.

Advantage: Karna

Deeds, strengths and weaknesses:

Arjuna adhered to dharma. Participated in the release of Duryodhan and others from the clutches of Gandharvas.

Arjuna overly relied on Lord Krishna for guidance. During Kurukshetra war, at the behest of Lord Krishna, made morally ambiguous choices and reluctantly participated in the killing of Bhsihma, Drona and Karna, which actions can be seen as going against the principles of dharma-yuddha. Here, if we are "blaming" Lord Krishna for what Arjuna did, then the credit too should go to the Lord for Arjuna's exploits.

At times Arjuna was arrogant. While not directly involved in the Eklavya episode, his "role" was still suspect. For instance, why did he remain silent, when Drona demanded an unusual gurudakshina from Eklavya? Fear? Reverence? Respect? Complicit in silence?

Karna was known to be extremely generous and never refused anyone who asked for alms. Understood the "dharma" behind repaying debt by being extremely loyal to Duryodhan even if it meant certain death in war. Spared the lives of Yudhishthira, Bhima, Nakula, and Sahadeva when they were weaponless, adhering to the warrior code of ethics.

Karna humiliated Draupadi, talked about her derogatorily and supported Duryodhana in disrobing her. This is of course unpardonable.

Karna knew about the ethical wrongs committed by Duryodhana and the Kauravas yet supported them.

Participated in the trapping and killing of Abhimanyu which violated the rules of fair combat.

Advantage: hard to say as a mere mortal but since the Lord himself said that "amongst the Pandavas I am Arjuna" (Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 10, Verse 37), I have no choice but to give the advantage here to Arjuna.

IMO, a debate on these two is not just a contest of physical prowess but also a clash of values, choices, and destinies. A couple of paragraphs or pages wouldn't do justice to this debate.

Originally posted by: RamAayeHain

Niiice one 

Though already making it clear ki Mahabharat ke hero is Shree Krishna , no Arjun or Karna 

And tbh both of them are not that great in terms of moral, just one is leaning more towards dharma and more towards adharma else their Nature is kind of sort of same only.

But will enjoy this debate

I think I will be in team Arjun only 😁

Isn’t that a huge factor in determining the greatness of a person? 

Amongst the very many differences between Arjuna and Karna, the biggest is who they chose as a friend and mentor. While Arjuna chose Krishna ,Karna chose Duryodhana.

Btw, Arjuna is called Nayak and Lord Krishna Maha Nayak.

Edited by e1t53e - 4 days ago

Originally posted by: e1t53e

Isn’t that a huge factor in determining the greatness of a person? 

Amongst the very many differences between Arjuna and Karna, the biggest is who they chose as a friend and mentor. While Arjuna chose Krishna ,Karna chose Duryodhana.

Btw, Arjuna is called Nayak and Lord Krishna Maha Nayak.

Not greatness but humility yess

Their bond has all my heart, Nar Narayan 💖 

B- actually Krishna chose Arjun  and duryodhan karna first

But yes that's why I chose team Arjun, he chose dharma over adharma

He didn't wanted anyone to be better Archer than him but not because he can't tolerate anyone better than him but because he wants to be the best in it 

Karna ka ulta tha 

No one chose team Karna 🤔🤔debate kisse karni hai 

Originally posted by: RamAayeHain

Not greatness but humility yess

Their bond has all my heart, Nar Narayan 💖 

B- actually Krishna chose Arjun  and duryodhan karna first

But yes that's why I chose team Arjun, he chose dharma over adharma

He didn't wanted anyone to be better Archer than him but not because he can't tolerate anyone better than him but because he wants to be the best in it 

Karna ka ulta tha 

Arjuna chose Dharma that’s why Krishna chose him. Krishna would’ve chosen Karna  or even Duryodhana if they decided to go on the path of Dharma but then he wouldn’t have had to put up with Kurukshetra😆…It is always the bhakt seeking out the God. God is there for everyone but it is upon us to choose Him as our guidance.