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Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Yes but for him a piece of land was more important so it does not count. I am talking about people who actually cared not who merely repeated it

I respect your opinion, but can you quote where he says that a piece of land is more important to him?

What I have read so far, he wasn't willing to fight for that piece of land, he wasn't willing to fight for Yudhistira's sovereignty, He would have been a willing participate in the war if he was in it for piece of land

He didn't wish to kill his grandfather and people he loved but he remembered what Duryodhan and Karna did to Draupadi while fighting them

I don't think it was because Arjuna wanted land more. He was simply a man of torn loyalties. His family mattered to him as well. This happens in boys who grow up without fathers. The other men in the family take on extra significance.

You see this agony in Vidura also. But he wasn't actually fighting. Arjuna knew he was expected to kill his grandfather and teacher.

Not everyone can be a Krishna or a Kunti, able to see what is actually morally right and willing to go against own family.

IMO, Arjuna very much belongs on that list.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

I respect your opinion, but can you quote where he says that a piece of land is more important to him?

What I have read so far, he wasn't willing to fight for that piece of land, he wasn't willing to fight for Yudhistira's sovereignty, He would have been a willing participate in the war if he was in it for piece of land

He didn't wish to kill his grandfather and people he loved but he remembered what Duryodhan and Karna did to Draupadi while fighting them

Here-

Then Arjuna, proceeding a few steps, further said unto his friend, that bull among men, that slayer of hostile heroes, that invincible warrior of Dasarha's race, 'It is known to all the kings, O illustrious Govinda, that at our consultation it was settled that we should ask back the kingdom. If without insulting us, if honouring thee, they honestly give us what we demand, then, O mighty armed one, they would please me greatly and would themselves escape a terrible danger. If, however, Dhritarashtra's son, who always adopts improper means, acts otherwise, then I shall surely, O Janardana, annihilate the Kshatriya race.'

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05083.htm

He clearly says that if duryodhan gives them land he will be very pleased

All the pandavas apart from sahadev only had one reason that is land

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

I don't think it was because Arjuna wanted land more. He was simply a man of torn loyalties. His family mattered to him as well. This happens in boys who grow up without fathers. The other men in the family take on extra significance.

You see this agony in Vidura also. But he wasn't actually fighting. Arjuna knew he was expected to kill his grandfather and teacher.

Not everyone can be a Krishna or a Kunti, able to see what is actually morally right and willing to go against own family.

IMO, Arjuna very much belongs on that list.

Then even bheem does. I did not include him. Infact bheem deserves more than arjuna And i highly doubt arjuna didn't want. He said so himself

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05083.htm

Bheem and arjuna had the same fate. Both choose peace over war. Both of them have reminiscent dice hall on the battlefield. Bheem killed dusashan bhim killed duryodhan and bheem was more pumped up when it actually came to war. He had more clarity that his job is to fight unlike him arjuna hesitated a lot.

His intial hesitation aside but what about drona ??

Did drona stopped to think that the person he is going to kill his favourite student s son no he did his job. What right did he had to rebuke drishtdyum the man who was fighting on his side for a person who did not wait to give a thought to you ever he was grown man for heaven sake. Hell even sahadeva the youngest had more clarity then arjuna and sahadeva grew up without a father too .

I get his intial hesitation but i don't think his unnecessarily picking a fight with drishtdyum was right

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Here-

Then Arjuna, proceeding a few steps, further said unto his friend, that bull among men, that slayer of hostile heroes, that invincible warrior of Dasarha's race, 'It is known to all the kings, O illustrious Govinda, that at our consultation it was settled that we should ask back the kingdom. If without insulting us, if honouring thee, they honestly give us what we demand, then, O mighty armed one, they would please me greatly and would themselves escape a terrible danger. If, however, Dhritarashtra's son, who always adopts improper means, acts otherwise, then I shall surely, O Janardana, annihilate the Kshatriya race.'

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05083.htm

He clearly says that if duryodhan gives them land he will be very pleased

All the pandavas apart from sahadev only had one reason that is land

This quote doesn't say that he picks land over Draupadi, This is about war and Krishna going to peace offering. Draupadi wasn't in picture, It was Kingdom with peace vs Kingdom with war, in both cases he is getting the piece of land, he chose peace over war, There's the difference, not land over Draupadi

Arjuna had left it upto Krishna -

O Krishna, wishest to do for thy friends is scarcely strange, although it seems inexplicable how the object In view is capable of being effected by either mildness or its reverse. Or, if thou deemest their immediate destruction to be preferable, let it be effected soon without further deliberation. Surely, thou knowest how Draupadi was insulted in the midst of the assembly by Duryodhana of sinful soul and how also we bore it with patience. That Duryodhana, O Madhava, will behave with justice towards the Pandavas is what I cannot believe. Wise counsels will be lost on him like seed sown in a barren soil. Therefore, do without delay what thou, O thou of Vrishni race, thinkest to be proper and beneficial for the Pandavas, or what, indeed, should next be done.'"

This is how Arjuna was talking to Krishna while everyone was discussing peace, he was reminding him what happened to Draupadi and that Duryodhan will select war or peace on basis of HIS words therefore Krishna being their friend should do what is best for them and he will follow

@bold in your quote - IF Duryodhan does this,IF Duryodhan gives everything

@Green - But he already said that he doesn't believe Duryodhan will do justice

He was asked by Krishna to tell Yudhishtira the truth and he did tell Yudhishtira that he finds no happiness in fighting for his sovereignty, Arjuna didn't go against Yudhishtir in front of everyone

Originally posted by: NoraSM

This quote doesn't say that he picks land over Draupadi, This is about war and Krishna going to peace offering, There's whole lot leading to this moment

Arjuna had left it upto Krishna -

O Krishna, wishest to do for thy friends is scarcely strange, although it seems inexplicable how the object In view is capable of being effected by either mildness or its reverse. Or, if thou deemest their immediate destruction to be preferable, let it be effected soon without further deliberation. Surely, thou knowest how Draupadi was insulted in the midst of the assembly by Duryodhana of sinful soul and how also we bore it with patience. That Duryodhana, O Madhava, will behave with justice towards the Pandavas is what I cannot believe. Wise counsels will be lost on him like seed sown in a barren soil. Therefore, do without delay what thou, O thou of Vrishni race, thinkest to be proper and beneficial for the Pandavas, or what, indeed, should next be done.'"

This is how Arjuna was talking to Krishna while everyone was discussing peace, he was reminding him what happened to Draupadi and that Duryodhan will select war or peace on basis of HIS words therefore Krishna being their friend should do what is best for them and he will follow

@bold in your quote - IF Duryodhan does this,IF Duryodhan gives everything

@Green - But he already said that he doesn't believe Duryodhan will do justice

He was asked by Krishna to tell Yudhishtira the truth and he did tell Yudhishtira that he finds no happiness in fighting for his sovereignty, Arjuna didn't go against Yudhishtir in front of everyone

Yes if duryodhan gives land i will be happy. As simple as that. He might have his inhibition about duryodhan but that does not means he preferred drapaudi over land. No he didn't.

And my post is mainly who were actually affected what drapaudi went through where she was coming from and why she was insisting that justice should served. Sadly arjuna didn't cared much. I have not included bheem either who drapaudi herself trusted more than she trusted arjuna

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

.

Yes if duryodhan gives land i will be happy. As simple as that. He might have his inhibition about duryodhan but that does not means he preferred drapaudi over land. No he didn't.

Thats your interpretation of it, when he already said that he doesn't believe Duryodhan will give it to them and that it depends on how Krishna talks to them

Krishna also said he is going for Peace but he led the peace talk in a way that Kauravas refused

They were saying these things in front of Yudhishtir and Bhima

Also it wasn't Draupadi vs Land

It was Kingdom with peace vs Kingdom with War

Anyway, As I said I respect your opinion and interpretation so I am not going to dwell on it any further

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Thats your interpretation of it, when he already said that he doesn't believe Duryodhan will give it to them

Krishna also said he is going for Peace but did he?

They were saying these things in front of Yudhishtir and Bhima

Also it wasn't Draupadi vs Land

It was Kingdom with peace vs Kingdom with War

Anyway, As I said I respect your opinion and interpretation so I am not going to dwell on it any further

Bhima?? On contray i feel Bhim deserves more than arjuna does

Point of my post was to only include people who were genuinely affected by drapaudi s plight. I did not include bhim so i did not see the point of including arjuna either

Panchali also demands justice only if there were no repentance

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05082.htm

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that intelligent lady, overwhelmed with woe and with eyes bathed in tears, said, 'O slayer of Madhu, it is known to thee, O thou of mighty arms, by what deceitful

p. 169

means, O righteous one, the son of Dhritarashtra with his counsellors robbed the Pandavas, O Janardana. of their happiness. Thou knowest also, O thou of Dasarha's race, what message was privately delivered to Sanjaya by the king. Thou hast also heard all that was said unto Sanjaya. O thou of great effulgence, these words were even these, 'Let only five villages be granted to us, viz., Avishthala, and Vrikasthala, and Makandi, and Varanavata, and for the fifth, any other,--O thou of mighty arms, O Kesava, even this was the message that was to have been delivered to Duryodhana and his counsellors. But, O Krishna, O thou of Dasarha's race, hearing those words of Yudhishthira, endued with modesty and anxious for peace, Suyodhana hath not acted according to them. If, O Krishna, Suyodhana desireth to make peace without surrendering the kingdom, there is no necessity of going thither for making such a peace. The Pandavas with the Srinjayas, O thou of mighty arms, are quite able to withstand the fierce Dhritarashtra host inflamed with rage. When they are no longer amenable to this arts of conciliation, it is not proper, O slayer of Madhu, that thou shouldst show them mercy. The Pandavas with the Srinjayas, O thou of mighty arms, are quite able to withstand the fierce Dhritarashtra host inflamed with rage. When they are no longer amenable to this arts of conciliation, it is not proper, O slayer of Madhu, that thou shouldst show them mercy. Those enemies, O Krishna, with whom peace cannot be established by either conciliation or presents, should be treated with severity by one desirous of saving his life. Therefore, O mighty-armed Achyuta, heavy should be the punishment that deserves to be speedily inflicted upon them by thyself aided by the Pandavas and the Srinjayas. Indeed, even this would become the son of Pritha, and add to thy glory, and if accomplished, will, O Krishna, be a source of great happiness to the whole Kshatriya race. He that is covetous, whether belonging to the Kshatriya or any other order, save of course a Brahmana, even if most sinful, ought surely to be slain by a Kshatriya, who is true to the duties of his own order. T

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I would include Arjuna because he was trying to keep everyone happy, including Panchali. I actually wouldn't include Bheema because though his natural inclination was toward Panchali, he showed no liking for his extended family for that to be the reason for his hesitation.

I actually like her and Arjuna more for it. War isn't something to be entered into lightly. Diff is, Panchali was more aware of circumstances and knew conciliation wasn't possible.