Posted:
@Lonewalker @FlauntPessimism
I am saying if I give Karna benefit of doubt and consider that he was genuinely trying to get the wheel out, Even then the chariot was no use to him as you said Shalya was demoralizing him, when Shalya didn't help him with his chariot, what was he going to do after he gets the wheel out?
If we want to be devils advocate, then I guess a chariot with bad charioteer is still better than no chariot at all
By the way
I actually wish Karna should have survived that day and died in the mid hours of the next. War should have extended till 19 days, then the CICs could have been holding their position in geometric progression
Bheeshm--10 days
Dron-- 5 days
Karna--2.5 days
Shalya--1.25 days
Ashwathama-- 0.625 days (0.25 days+ 0.425 night)
Karna spoiled the calculation
Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism
If we want to be devils advocate, then I guess a chariot with bad charioteer is still better than no chariot at all
By the way
I actually wish Karna should have survived that day and died in the mid hours of the next. War should have extended till 19 days, then the CICs could have been holding their position in geometric progression
Bheeshm--10 days
Dron-- 5 days
Karna--2.5 days
Shalya--1.25 days
Ashwathama-- 0.625 days (0.25 days+ 0.425 night)
Karna spoiled the calculation
Legend says Karna invented Paneer
Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.
Yudhistir could be an easier target for Karna. But well...his halfbaked daan to Kunti came in its way.
Even his promise to Kunti seems pointless to me.
He clearly tells Kunti that he can spare the other 4 Pandavas, but not Arjuna. He will fight Arjuna & try to kill Arjuna. Was this supposed to delight Kunti? 🤔 Arjuna was very much a dear son to Kunti, how did he think Kunti will react to this promise?
And then he promises to spare the other 4 Pandavas which includes Yudhistira & Bheema and in turn closed the door of victory for Duryodhana.
Karna's promise was like....na ghar ka na ghaatka. Neither meant to pacify Kunti nor meant to assure Duryodhan. Karna was loyal to none. Other than his obsession over Arjuna.😆
People always say that Duryodhan just used the bigger than life Karna, who died for his friend and etc., but I find it just the opposite
I don't have an iota of doubt about Duryodhan's feelings and friendship, he genuinely was a true friend, but I have my suspicion over Karna, was he actually a friend to Duryodhan or Duryodhan was just a way to defeat Arjun for him? Although I do believe that both of them were genuine and true friends but Karna's actions sometimes raise suspicion to me. What exactly was he trying to get out of this. Probably he felt that with Arjun's death Pandavas wouldn't have any chance of winning
Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism
Was Arjun around when Karna attacked Ghatochkach?? Even if he was, I don't think Arjun would have actually got into a duel since it wouldn't have been an immoral and unjust combat.
He needed Shalya as a charioteer because he was great at it, no one else could have matched the excellence of Krishna. So he couldn't have asked for another one.
Anyhow chariot wheel fixing was definitely just a strategy to kill time. But he wasn't weaponless even on ground he did try to attack Arjun on foot, but was overpowered by Arjun.
Talking about immoral & unjust combat when the whole battle was going on in night time? After sunset? I doubt moral ground was an issue at this point.
Arjuna was out there & fighting ....but probably not anywhere near Ghatotkacha that he would be able to protect him. There is this conversation between Yudhistira, Krishna & Arjuna
King Yudhishthira saw that his own army was running away. Thinking that retreat was preferable, he spoke
these words to Phalguna.
‘Behold. The great archer, Karna, is stationed with a bow in his hand. Though it is a dreadful night, he is scorching like the sun. The whizzing sounds of Karna’s arrows are being incessantly heard. O Partha! Your relatives seem to be without a protector. He is swiftly affixing and releasing arrows. It is certain that he will destroy us and I see that the valiant one’s victory is certain. The time has come. Adopt the course of action that you think to be appropriate next. O Dhananjaya! Do what needs to be done to kill Karna.’
Having been thus addressed, the mighty-armed Partha spoke to Krishna.
‘The king is frightened of the supreme valour of Radheya, the son of Kunti. Karna’s army is repeatedly acting and the time has come. Our army is running away and we must quickly decide on a course of action. O Madhusudana! They are being mangled by Drona’s arrows. They are frightened of Karna and are unable to take a stand. Behold. Karna is fearlessly roaming around there. He is showering sharp arrows and driving away the best of rathas. O tiger among the Vrishni lineage! Like a snake that has been stepped on with a foot, I cannot bear to see him wander around thus on the field of battle and remain oblivious. Therefore, swiftly go to the spot where maharatha Karna is. O Madhusudana! I will kill him. Or let him kill me.’
Vasudeva replied, ‘O Kounteya! I have seen Karna roaming around in the battle, like the king of the gods. He is a tiger among men and superhuman in his valour. O Dhananjaya! O tiger among men! With the exception of you and the rakshasa Ghatotkacha, there is no one else who can counter him in battle. O unblemished one! O mighty armed one! I do not think that the time has come for you to confront the son of a suta in battle. He possesses a blazing spear that he obtained from Vasava. O mighty-armed one! It is terrible in form and he has retained it for you. Let the immensely strong Ghatotkacha advance against Radheya. He has been born from the powerful Bhima and is like the gods in valour. He possesses divine weapons and also those of the rakshasas and asuras. Ghatotkacha has always been devoted to you and has your welfare in mind. It is my view that there is no doubt about his defeating Karna in the battle.’
So Yudhistir asked Arjuna go & stop Karna, Arjuna was very much ready to go & fight Karna but Krishna stopped him because of the Shakti Astra & sent Ghatotkacha instead.
Arjuna did want to get into a duel with Karna, but Krishna stopped him.
He spoiled everything including milk (Soured milk - Paneer)
I do have a habit of cracking stupid jokes 🙊🙊🙊🙊🙃🙃🙃
Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism
People always say that Duryodhan just used the bigger than life Karna, who died for his friend and etc., but I find it just the opposite
I don't have an iota of doubt about Duryodhan's feelings and friendship, he genuinely was a true friend, but I have my suspicion over Karna, was he actually a friend to Duryodhan or Duryodhan was just a way to defeat Arjun for him? Although I do believe that both of them were genuine and true friends but Karna's actions sometimes raise suspicion to me. What exactly was he trying to get out of this. Probably he felt that with Arjun's death Pandavas wouldn't have any chance of winning
Honestly speaking I am not that convinced of Duryodhan & Karna's friendship. It was born out of common jealousy towards the Pandavas & was more like a give & take relation than an unconditional one. Duryodhan entertained Karna because he thought Karna as an archer was an answer to Arjuna & Karna obvio would support Duryodhan after he got a whole kingdom on a platter. But he had his personal agenda to fulfill & always prefered his supposed competition with Arjuna over his friendship with Duryodhan. HE totally egged Duryodhan on & led him to Kurukshetra while others were advising against it. What kind of friendship is this?
Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.
Talking about immoral & unjust combat when the whole battle was going on in night time? After sunset? I doubt moral ground was an issue at this point.
Arjuna was out there & fighting ....but probably not anywhere near Ghatotkacha that he would be able to protect him. There is this conversation between Yudhistira, Krishna & Arjuna
King Yudhishthira saw that his own army was running away. Thinking that retreat was preferable, he spoke
these words to Phalguna.
‘Behold. The great archer, Karna, is stationed with a bow in his hand. Though it is a dreadful night, he is scorching like the sun. The whizzing sounds of Karna’s arrows are being incessantly heard. O Partha! Your relatives seem to be without a protector. He is swiftly affixing and releasing arrows. It is certain that he will destroy us and I see that the valiant one’s victory is certain. The time has come. Adopt the course of action that you think to be appropriate next. O Dhananjaya! Do what needs to be done to kill Karna.’
Having been thus addressed, the mighty-armed Partha spoke to Krishna.
‘The king is frightened of the supreme valour of Radheya, the son of Kunti. Karna’s army is repeatedly acting and the time has come. Our army is running away and we must quickly decide on a course of action. O Madhusudana! They are being mangled by Drona’s arrows. They are frightened of Karna and are unable to take a stand. Behold. Karna is fearlessly roaming around there. He is showering sharp arrows and driving away the best of rathas. O tiger among the Vrishni lineage! Like a snake that has been stepped on with a foot, I cannot bear to see him wander around thus on the field of battle and remain oblivious. Therefore, swiftly go to the spot where maharatha Karna is. O Madhusudana! I will kill him. Or let him kill me.’
Vasudeva replied, ‘O Kounteya! I have seen Karna roaming around in the battle, like the king of the gods. He is a tiger among men and superhuman in his valour. O Dhananjaya! O tiger among men! With the exception of you and the rakshasa Ghatotkacha, there is no one else who can counter him in battle. O unblemished one! O mighty armed one! I do not think that the time has come for you to confront the son of a suta in battle. He possesses a blazing spear that he obtained from Vasava. O mighty-armed one! It is terrible in form and he has retained it for you. Let the immensely strong Ghatotkacha advance against Radheya. He has been born from the powerful Bhima and is like the gods in valour. He possesses divine weapons and also those of the rakshasas and asuras. Ghatotkacha has always been devoted to you and has your welfare in mind. It is my view that there is no doubt about his defeating Karna in the battle.’
So Yudhistir asked Arjuna go & stop Karna, Arjuna was very much ready to go & fight Karna but Krishna stopped him because of the Shakti Astra & sent Ghatotkacha instead.
Arjuna did want to get into a duel with Karna, but Krishna stopped him.
No I understand that, Arjun definitely was never afraid to combat Karna, I meant that one Ghatochkach and Karna were into combat, Arjun wouldn't have intervened even if Karna used a Brahmastra. We can never be sure, but that's my understanding basis Arjun's character
Brahmastra was a destructive weapon, If Dury was with Ghato, he would have died too, was it specific?
same doubt. Probably it would have killed Dury too & then the Kauravas would have thrashed Karna for scoring a same side goal 😆
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