Your thoughts on... Karn? - Page 8

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Posted: 4 years ago
#71

Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.

That's true ❤️ Abhimanyu is 💔💔 In spite of his young age, he was a great warrior. Only if he knew how to make exit from the Chakravyuh 😭


Btw regarding this, was it really because Subhadra fell asleep while Arjun was explaining the exit plan?
I recently read somewhere that Abhimanyu was incarnation of Moon God's son & Moon God wished that his son will stay in mortal world for only 16 years as he couldn't be separated from his son for more than that. Krishna knew about it.

So when Arjun was explaining about Chakravyuh, Krishna let Arjun explain till how to enter. And then called him away with some excuse so that he couldn't tell about the exit route, thus paving way for Abhimanyu's death & Moon God's son's return to heaven after precisely 16 years.


Which one is true?

Actually that subhdra falling as sleep when arjun was explaining about chakravyuh is not mentioned anywhere in the epic. Surprising considering the fact that how famous this story is . But abhimanyu does talks about arjun teaching him how to enter chakravyuh. So i think it was part of his pre-war training. But nothing is mentioned about Krishna interrupting him so not sure about that . Maybe arjun never got the chance to complete this part of his training.

Edited by Poorabhforever - 4 years ago
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Posted: 4 years ago
#72

Originally posted by: AnkitaPurka66

He is my favourite character in Mahabharata.😳❤️


Reasons:

1. I proudly say that his story is the most compelling to me.

As someone in the thread pointed out before, he has the underdog story and climbing from rags to riches aspect. I have no shame to proclaim that I come under that apparent "general" audience who like these kind of stories and such inspiring characters.


2. His choices before the war when his resolve was tested prove him to be one of the very few characters who did not want riches or materialistic pleasures and only wanted respect.

The concept of "Dharma" and "Adharma" came later. At that time, the war was for a throne and a kingdom. Period. No one can say that the fighting parties did not wish to gain anything. Karna was an exception. He was fighting for respect.


@bold- He wanted only Arjun's death and to defeat him. He got enough respect (more than he deserved) and enough of materialistic pleasures too. Sorry, but someone whose aim in life is to kill another warrior just because he is celebrated and loved is sheer jealousy and narrow mindedness. So he was fighting for respect doesn't stand. You don't gain respect by undermining others or piting everything you have against him/her.


3. The "trade" - a very poor one, I might add. As by giving away his immortality/invincibility, he gained a one-time use weapon. Not a fair trade at all in my opinion. So yeah, he "donated" away his Kavach in charity.


Kavach or Kundal didn't make him invincible and definitely not immortal because there are several instances (I may quote) where he was defeated before this daan bit happened. Even Drupad, Dhristadyumna had defeated him. Arjun defeated him multiple times before this Daan occurred. So it was very much a trade. And he refuses to give away his Kavach Kundal and literally threatens Indra than without Shakti he wouldn't. And that weapon had the ability to kill Arjun. So it isn't just a one time use weapon. It was all Karna wanted in his life.


4. His loyalty to Duryodhana -

He willingly chose a losing side to fight, knowing it would cause certain death.

He chose to stand by Duryodhana despite knowing that the Pandavas are his blood brothers and he would be expected to kill them in battle. So, yes, he was a very good friend to Duryodhana


5. His stance on Dharma

Yes, he betrayed Duryodhana to a large extent by promising to spare four of the Pandavas. These four however includes Yudhisthir, the one whose killing would be most beneficial to the Kauravas. Hence, by chosing to spare Yudhisthir, he CHOSE Dharma to win.


The two parts in bold don't coincide. XD You need to decide what you think Karna chose, Dharma or Duryodhana because the two are diametrically opposite.


6. He WAS discriminated on basis of caste/low birth.

If he was a student of Drona in the Gurukul ( which I highly doubt - yes I know it is mentioned in KMG), then Drona not providing him knowledge of Divyastras IS discrimination to me.

It is equal to someone not getting a college degree because of reservation.


Reservation is a different concept altogether. Karna wasn't low caste to begin with. And Drona didn't give him the Brahmastra knowledge only because he would use it to kill Arjun for no reason. At this stage, Arjun hadn't done anything wrong to him so wanting to kill him for jealousy makes no sense. Also Brahmastra was a divine weapon and it's use is recommended only for the greater good. Of course in today's terms any weapon of mass destruction can't do much good. But back then war was glorified. So wanting its knowledge just for killing someone is like saying I want a nuclear weapon because I want to kill my college competitor. XD


During Draupadi Swayamvar, I do not fault Draupadi at all for rejecting him. Of course, it was her marriage and she had complete right to choose her suitor. However, why did she think that marrying a suitor of low birth would be detrimental to her status in society? Because birth did matter. So yes, it WAS discrimination because of existing social rules.


@bold- she didn't. Karna wasn't invited in her Swayamvar in the first place and that was because he was a King via Daan. Draupadi cannot be blamed for being a princess and wanting to marry a prince.


7. Just want to comment on the misogyny - do we think women enjoyed a high position in society generally?


@bold- let's talk history here. The status of women in Early Vedic Age was quite high because the advent of patriarchy came in the Later Vedic Age. This is backed by historical research, you might want to check. Mahabharata is an important source for the study of the Later Vedic Age, so it is in this age that position of women fall. And yes these men contributed to it. Also, it is basic respect. You cannot blame society for throwing such terribly disgusting comments about a woman in the middle of the court and enjoying her disrobing in open court. He only proves himself a jerk here.


The queen of Indraprastha was staked by her own husband in a game of dice, so what can we expect of the society?

Even though many people have many different perceptions on this offer, but Vyas mentions Lord Krishna did offer Draupadi as a wife to Karna even after everything had happened. Does not paint a pretty picture of the position of women in society.


Sex trafficking etc. - I have never heard and Vyas does tend to go to exaggerations a lot .


Lastly, I didn't comment on his archery skills as it is well established he was a formidable warrior, whether he was the best or not. And his death was by unfair means, everyone agrees on that.


@bold- Well he was not unarmed when he was killed. (i may quote). And please keep in mind Parashuram's curse which Karna got due to his own lies. Besides, if he was so good a warrior, he would not use unfair means himself to kill a young boy. Also, he was been defeated multiple times by Arjun and many others.


Those are my thoughts on Karna. 😳


My answers in underlined. Bold parts the one in reference to which I speak.

1169321 thumbnail
Posted: 4 years ago
#73

Originally posted by: AnkitaPurka66

He is my favourite character in Mahabharata.😳❤️


Reasons:

1. I proudly say that his story is the most compelling to me.

As someone in the thread pointed out before, he has the underdog story and climbing from rags to riches aspect. I have no shame to proclaim that I come under that apparent "general" audience who like these kind of stories and such inspiring characters.


2. His choices before the war when his resolve was tested prove him to be one of the very few characters who did not want riches or materialistic pleasures and only wanted respect.

The concept of "Dharma" and "Adharma" came later. At that time, the war was for a throne and a kingdom. Period. No one can say that the fighting parties did not wish to gain anything. Karna was an exception. He was fighting for respect.


3. The "trade" - a very poor one, I might add. As by giving away his immortality/invincibility, he gained a one-time use weapon. Not a fair trade at all in my opinion. So yeah, he "donated" away his Kavach in charity.


4. His loyalty to Duryodhana -

He willingly chose a losing side to fight, knowing it would cause certain death.

He chose to stand by Duryodhana despite knowing that the Pandavas are his blood brothers and he would be expected to kill them in battle. So, yes, he was a very good friend to Duryodhana


5. His stance on Dharma

Yes, he betrayed Duryodhana to a large extent by promising to spare four of the Pandavas. These four however includes Yudhisthir, the one whose killing would be most beneficial to the Kauravas. Hence, by chosing to spare Yudhisthir, he CHOSE Dharma to win.


6. He WAS discriminated on basis of caste/low birth.

If he was a student of Drona in the Gurukul ( which I highly doubt - yes I know it is mentioned in KMG), then Drona not providing him knowledge of Divyastras IS discrimination to me.

It is equal to someone not getting a college degree because of reservation.


During Draupadi Swayamvar, I do not fault Draupadi at all for rejecting him. Of course, it was her marriage and she had complete right to choose her suitor. However, why did she think that marrying a suitor of low birth would be detrimental to her status in society? Because birth did matter. So yes, it WAS discrimination because of existing social rules.


7. Just want to comment on the misogyny - do we think women enjoyed a high position in society generally?

The queen of Indraprastha was staked by her own husband in a game of dice, so what can we expect of the society?

Even though many people have many different perceptions on this offer, but Vyas mentions Lord Krishna did offer Draupadi as a wife to Karna even after everything had happened. Does not paint a pretty picture of the position of women in society.


Sex trafficking etc. - I have never heard and Vyas does tend to go to exaggerations a lot .


Lastly, I didn't comment on his archery skills as it is well established he was a formidable warrior, whether he was the best or not. And his death was by unfair means, everyone agrees on that.


Those are my thoughts on Karna. 😳


2 I think a person who wanted respect wouldn't partake in murder of Abhimanyu, a great warrior like him surely could have defeated Abhimanyu, alone but he chose to attack in group. His only agenda was proving himself better than Arjun after Arjun defeated him multiple times


3 The trade wasn't a poor one, He didn't give up on his immortality. An immortal wouldn't flee from places or be defeated by anyone, What's there to lose, if one is not going to die? How did Drupad, Bheema and Arjun defeated him? These people were mere mortal. Karna's armor saved him from normal weapons, not against celestial weapons, and he got something to fulfill his agenda of killing Arjun


4 and 5 are contradictory in nature, If he was on side of Dharma and Duryodhana's friend, did he tell Duryodhana that he won't kill 4 Pandavas including the most important one? He was just making promises to everyone thinking none will find out


6 He was student of Drona so were Kauravas and Pandavas, Drona selected Arjun out of 105 Princes, when Drona didn't teach those 104 Prince, including 2 future Kings then where's the discrimination? Arjun was selected for his capability, he was better than Karna


Draupadi didn't reject Karna, he LOST the competition, he couldn't String the bow, only Arjun was able to string the bow and hit the mark on fish eye


7 Karna did offer his wife with his will to anyone who tells him about location of Arjun

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Posted: 4 years ago
#74

Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.

@ Bold 🤣🤣🤣


@Underlined : Sadly yes. And that's where these tv serials get their inspiration regarding Karn. You know there's a novel called The Palace of Illusion? It's apparently Mahabharat from Draupadi's pov & guess what? She was secretly in love with Karn 🤢🤢 WTF 🤢 How twisted these writers can get. 🤢


I know, I read it. Draupadi HATED him and she has enough comments to prove the same. Draupadi isn't Daenarys Targaryen to fall for the man who paved way for hee harassment.


This Drau secretly loving Karn is a story born out of a dumb folktale which is prevalent. I am too lazy to write down the full story but just google it. It is not mentioned in Vyasa's MB or in any version. Just ancient fan fiction. XD


Draupadi Karn fan fiction is quite popular. There is a modern version of this tale called Draupadi in High Heels. It is a modern version of how this hirl was destined to marry a rich hot guy called Arjun but ends up chosing a guy called Karan. I read it and it's 🤣🤣

1169321 thumbnail
Posted: 4 years ago
#75

Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.

That's true ❤️ Abhimanyu is 💔💔 In spite of his young age, he was a great warrior. Only if he knew how to make exit from the Chakravyuh 😭


Btw regarding this, was it really because Subhadra fell asleep while Arjun was explaining the exit plan?
I recently read somewhere that Abhimanyu was incarnation of Moon God's son & Moon God wished that his son will stay in mortal world for only 16 years as he couldn't be separated from his son for more than that. Krishna knew about it.

So when Arjun was explaining about Chakravyuh, Krishna let Arjun explain till how to enter. And then called him away with some excuse so that he couldn't tell about the exit route, thus paving way for Abhimanyu's death & Moon God's son's return to heaven after precisely 16 years.


Which one is true?


Abhimanyu wasn't 16 years old

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Posted: 4 years ago
#76

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

I was not judging you based on the character you like at all. I was pointing out that how your post pen/written down. It reeked of as i said misgony That s it. I like gray characters too.


Then probably it is my incapability to portray my point correctly.

I stand corrected.

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Posted: 4 years ago
#77

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark


My answers in underlined. Bold parts the one in reference to which I speak.


Hi Brishti ( if I am not wrong), below are my points against yours:


@bold- He wanted only Arjun's death and to defeat him. He got enough respect (more than he deserved) and enough of materialistic pleasures too. Sorry, but someone whose aim in life is to kill another warrior just because he is celebrated and loved is sheer jealousy and narrow mindedness. So he was fighting for respect doesn't stand. You don't gain respect by undermining others or piting everything you have against him/her.


Did he get respect? When he lived? All the respect and the extra glorification happens today. He didn't get respect in his lifetime, and he wanted that.

That's what I meant.


Kavach or Kundal didn't make him invincible and definitely not immortal because there are several instances (I may quote) where he was defeated before this daan bit happened. Even Drupad, Dhristadyumna had defeated him. Arjun defeated him multiple times before this Daan occurred. So it was very much a trade. And he refuses to give away his Kavach Kundal and literally threatens Indra than without Shakti he wouldn't. And that weapon had the ability to kill Arjun. So it isn't just a one time use weapon. It was all Karna wanted in his life.


Then why did Indra had to intervene? If kavach kundal didn't matter pertaining to his life, then why did he need to come? Karna has been defeated with it, yes.

What was the specific need this time? Unless it is related to his life.


The two parts in bold don't coincide. XD You need to decide what you think Karna chose, Dharma or Duryodhana because the two are diametrically opposite.


Yes it's a contradiction: D. In trying to keep himself loyal to both Duryodhana and his newfound family who represents the side of Dharma, he ultimately wasn't 100 percent loyal to anyone. But that's the more fascinating the character gets for me.

His intent is good here.


Reservation is a different concept altogether. Karna wasn't low caste to begin with. And Drona didn't give him the Brahmastra knowledge only because he would use it to kill Arjun for no reason. At this stage, Arjun hadn't done anything wrong to him so wanting to kill him for jealousy makes no sense. Also Brahmastra was a divine weapon and it's use is recommended only for the greater good. Of course in today's terms any weapon of mass destruction can't do much good. But back then war was glorified. So wanting its knowledge just for killing someone is like saying I want a nuclear weapon because I want to kill my college competitor. XD


I don't know, as I replied to another poster, Drona's refusal to give him knowledge on Brahmastra or other celestial astra's is comparable to below scenario according to me, which is not justice at all.

Scenario : I want to learn Japanese. The instructor refuses to teach me because another Asian guy is better equipped to pick it up as he had a base knowledge of the language. So, how does the instructor know that I will not be as good as him if I practice right?

How did Drona know that Karna wants it to use celestial weapons for nefarious purposes?


@bold- she didn't. Karna wasn't invited in her Swayamvar in the first place and that was because he was a King via Daan. Draupadi cannot be blamed for being a princess and wanting to marry a prince.


He was as far as I know. His name was called out when introductions were going on.


@bold- let's talk history here. The status of women in Early Vedic Age was quite high because the advent of patriarchy came in the Later Vedic Age. This is backed by historical research, you might want to check. Mahabharata is an important source for the study of the Later Vedic Age, so it is in this age that position of women fall. And yes these men contributed to it. Also, it is basic respect. You cannot blame society for throwing such terribly disgusting comments about a woman in the middle of the court and enjoying her disrobing in open court. He only proves himself a jerk here.


No arguing here. No true fan of Karna will ever defend him in the DyutSabha. What's wrong is wrong.


@bold- Well he was not unarmed when he was killed. (i may quote). And please keep in mind Parashuram's curse which Karna got due to his own lies. Besides, if he was so good a warrior, he would not use unfair means himself to kill a young boy. Also, he was been defeated multiple times by Arjun and many others.


Source please? That he was armed.

Edited by AnkitaPurka66 - 4 years ago
Agni_Jytsona thumbnail
Posted: 4 years ago
#78

Originally posted by: AnkitaPurka66


Then probably it is my incapability to portray my point correctly.

I stand corrected.

Corrected about what exactly ?? Because i would like to disagree with all your points

670134 thumbnail
Posted: 4 years ago
#79

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Abhimanyu wasn't 16 years old

Like everything in Mahabharat, even Abhimanyu's age is controversial 😆 Many believe he was born before the Rajsuya yaggya & was perhaps 32-33 years old when he died.
And many believe he was born 2-3 years prior to the Dice game incident & Pandavas' subsequent Exile for 13 years, which make him 16 years old during the war.

But in KMG's Mahabharat there's this mention of Abhimanyu being Chandra Deva's son's incarnation & Chandra Deva lending his son to mortal world for only 16 years. And while lending his son, he even mentioned how his son would leave mortal world & unite with him in heaven once these 16 years completes. And that description fits with how Abhimanyu died.

Edited by .Lonewalker. - 4 years ago
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Posted: 4 years ago
#80

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark


I know, I read it. Draupadi HATED him and she has enough comments to prove the same. Draupadi isn't Daenarys Targaryen to fall for the man who paved way for hee harassment.


This Drau secretly loving Karn is a story born out of a dumb folktale which is prevalent. I am too lazy to write down the full story but just google it. It is not mentioned in Vyasa's MB or in any version. Just ancient fan fiction. XD


Draupadi Karn fan fiction is quite popular. There is a modern version of this tale called Draupadi in High Heels. It is a modern version of how this hirl was destined to marry a rich hot guy called Arjun but ends up chosing a guy called Karan. I read it and it's 🤣🤣


Hey Bhagawan 😆


@ Bold - I know this one 😆 It's that one na where Draupadi breaks a fruit from some tree & that fruit was supposed to be some Tapaswee's meal after a long penance....Draupadi got scared & asked how she can restore it in the tree & Krishna said if she lets go of the secret she is holding she will be able to restore it & she confesses about her secret longing for Karn to her husbands? 😆😆

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