Your thoughts on... Karn? - Page 14

Originally posted by: myviewprem

Karna is both faulted and flawed

Hes both good and bad

Karna's fate was decided by kunti when she let him float in river. She could have given him to someone who would bring him up someone who was not a low caste. But she was selfish to let the baby go. Is it not similar to mothers leaving babies in garbage cans or bushes without thinking of babys life. Kunti only thought for herself than Karna.

-- Yeah....not trying to justify Kunti...but I think having a baby in unmarried state would have been quite a scandal for a Princess. When Karn was born Kunti was young & immature. She was more scared of the society & all than the baby. That's true and when she matured up, she came to regret it.

Karna was humiliated all life as low caste by draupadi, pandavas etc but Dhuryodhana gave him respect. In that way Dhuryodhana is better at respecting human and not their birth caste

-- This is a misconception spread by television's adaption of Mahabharat & similar shows on Karna. Originally Karna was NOT humiliated by either Draupadi or Pandavas. That "Suta Putra" comment is later interpolation, not present in original Mahabharat. Pandavas were totally indifferent to him until Karna made it a habit of challenging Arjun in duel all the time to prove he is better than Arjun. Even Arjun never insulted him until Karna became Duryodhan's ally.

Regarding Draupadi swayamwar, Draupadi did not want to marry a low caste karna fine so why call him in first place to swayamwar is my question. To insult him?

-- First of all, Karna was not invited to the swayamvar. He came as Duryodhan's sidekick. He was not invited like other Kings or Princes to participate because his Kingdom was for namesake only. So Karna did not have the right to participate. Plus this "I would not marry a Suta Putra" comment is not there in original text. In fact, in original text, it's hinted at that Karna could not string the bow & was unsuccessful at the task. Hence there's no question of Draupadi rejecting him based on cast.

Karna humiliated Draupadi in return at court. But Karna would have become a great man if he had told duryodhana not to disrespect draupadi. He died because of this grave sin. So even if he lived after war can draupadi forgive him and give him elder brother in law respect?

-- See, he was not humiliated by Draupadi at all. Neither by the Pandavas until he chose to be Duryodhan's ally & started making promises like he will defeat Arjun & kill him. Personally Arjun didn't do him any harm but he was obsessed with killing Arjun just because Arjun was considered to be the greatest archer of his time, a title Karna wanted for himself. And Arjun gave him befitting replies in duels & wars. This is hardly a reason to call an woman a prostitute & encourage her disrobing. If he survived the war, Draupadi should have killed him with her own hands.

Regarding Kunti behaviour - shes most selfish human and mother. She went and told karna hes her son why to save life of pandavas? Did she go and tell pandavas karna is their brother do not kill him? No. I do not think kunti was a great mother at all to karna

-- Another misconception due to wrong presentation by tv serials. Kunti did not tell Karna the truth to save the lives of Pandavas. Do you really think Karn alone is any match for the 5 Pandavas united? Either Arjun or Bheem could have finished him off alone. Kunti told him the truth to stop him from fighting his own brothers & that's too to help Duryodhan's adharmik plan. There's nothing more tragic than brothers fighting among themselves. And there's nothing more painful than that for the mother. She tried to save Karna from doing Adharma.

And it was Karn himself who forbade Kunti to tell the truth to the Pandavas. Because he thought Yudhistir will leave his right on the throne for him & Arjun would refuse to fight him in the war. And how can he kill Arjun if Arjun refuse to fight him? 🥱 And of course he had to kill his brother anyhow to make Dury win.

Arjun was also sitting in sabha when draupadi was humiliated? He also sat seeing all insults at her. Hes also equal fault as Karna or Beeshma or Drona charya etc

-- No. By the time Draupadi was being staked, Arjun was already staked & won over & was reduced to being just a slave for the Kauravas. He was stripped off his princely status & power & his weapons was snatched away from him. Unlike Karn who was freely sitting there, Arjun had no means to protect Draupadi. If he had, he would have surely done so. Even in that state, Arjun did support Panchali's claim that Yudhistir didn't have the right to stake Panchali as Yudhistir had lost himself. But was shutted up by Kaurav gang because he was their slave at that point. But still he was ashamed & felt humiliated to see what was happening with Draupadi. He was not encouraging Duryodhan like Karn.

I like Bheema atleast he spoke out against whats happening to draupadi

-- Bheema did not speak up during the incident. He was enraged, but couldn't say anything because of he too was won over. But later he promised to kill off all the Kaurav brothers for what they did to Panchali.

My replies in Blue. And these are not my fanciful imagination. People in this thread have provided enough citation to back up my answers. What you stated are nothing but the misconceptions these tv serials spread about Karn by whitewashing & unduly glorifying him.

Originally posted by: myviewprem

I often wonder why good humans support bad friends or family members in their misdeeds. Bheeshma was a good man why he supported Dhuryodhan? Karna was a good human majority times yet he supported Dhuryodhan in dhyut sabha and war. Than i think its more of gratitude or many people lack courage to say no to do wrong things for friend and family. Out of obligation they do bad things. Like a worker obeys his boss even if he knows that work is illegal as per law because he wants to remain in that job. Second reason is for status and wealth. People are in a bad race to defeat and outdo rest of world. Once they enter that race they do not know to come out of it or to say enough i am leaving. That was problem with bheeshma and karna and so many others you see. They cannot say no to king drithrastra or duryodhana although they know they are wrong. Very few hardly 5% in entire world has braveness to say no to do bad deeds when family or friends or boss ask them too. Karna wanted to show hes better than arjuna(competition) hence accepted dhuryodhanas friendship and want to get out of low caste tage(status) to world. Than he wanted to take revenge for Draupadis insult in swayamwar. All these are one way streets getting wealth,, status, revenge once you start you cannot stop or return back in life to your old self your normal self your righteous self

Don't insult Bhisma by comparing him with Karn. Bhisma was pratigyabandh to protect Hastinapur thorne & its heir. He sacrificed his whole life so that his father could marry Satyavati & be happy. In spite of being the heir of the throne, Bhisma promised to stay unmarried & celibate for his whole life and serve Hastinapur throne like a Savak so that Satyvati's son could be the King. And he was bound by this promise. He couldn't break his promise because that would be Adharm. He didn't have any way out. So he had to fight from Duryodhan's side. But mentally he never supported Duryodhan. His weapons fought for Duryodhan but his blessings were always with the Pandavas. He himself told Pandavas how to kill him & thus sacrificed himself once again for the greater good.

Whatever Karn did, he did it purely for personal gains with selfish reasons.

Originally posted by: cts22

I think only in the digital world , you see people glorifying him to no end or hating him so much that even his best qualities are questioned.

In most families of parents and grandparents there is tremendous respect towards his charitable nature and sympathy for the character. Overall inspite of his flawed persona he is a respected character and one of the most complex and nuanced characters

The problem with most is many view the Mahabharata from a western perspective and get into endless debates on whether Karna or Arjuna were better skilled or does he even deserve sympathy at all.

Mahabharata is complex and nuanced, where each character and story teach you a valuable lesson in life.

For me personally I love some characters because I see most of the characters showing tremendous growth.

In this regard especially Draupadi, Kunti, Arjun, Yudhishthir, Bhishma and Karna show great growth.

For Karna, he was always in war within himself, he loved his adoptive parents but also wanted to know about his birth parents. He wanted to rise above his means to become a great warrior but respected the traditions of the caste rules. To prove that he was a greatest warrior, it was to kill Arjuna. He was dharmic and still supported Duryodhana in his wrong deeds for gratitude and misplaced loyalty. He was always in a bitter conflict with Bheeshma.

His biggest fault was in the dyut sabha and had to be punished for it.

His donation of Kavach and Kundal does earn him as a daanveer . Similarly him rejecting Krishna's offer truly makes him magnanimous , of course he had come too far in his wrongdoing that his conscience could not accept it.

Karna knowing about his birth definitely gave him closure and peace for what he was searching all his life. He had resolved his conflict with Bheeshma.

He knew about his parentage and had closure with Kunti. He had also mentally made peace with the Pandavas. The need to prove himself to be more skilled than Arjun was not there anymore as he was his brother. He knew that he would die as he was in the wrong, and to die in the war was his redemption but that is the way he wanted to go fighting down in a war.

He had made peace , resolved his inner war and chose to die the way he wanted to

Yes I agree on this 💯 percent

I am really shocked to c Arjun Vs Karan debates on internet

Guys this is not some EKTA Kapoor show where v discuss which character is Ur favourite n blah blah

This is our history...and we learn so many things from Mahabharat even today ...just ask your elders about how they would feel who's the best archer and they would avoid this question cz they are not from YouTube -Twitter generation

Our ancestors B it Arjun Karna duryodhan or even shakuni have given us this beautiful lesson in the form of Mahabharat and least v could do is stop this nonsense debates..I don't think even Arjun(in heaven lol) would like if v talk shit about Karna and vice versa

Originally posted by: nikitap94

Yes I agree on this 💯 percent

I am really shocked to c Arjun Vs Karan debates on internet

Guys this is not some EKTA Kapoor show where v discuss which character is Ur favourite n blah blah

This is our history...and we learn so many things from Mahabharat even today ...just ask your elders about how they would feel who's the best archer and they would avoid this question cz they are not from YouTube -Twitter generation

Our ancestors B it Arjun Karna duryodhan or even shakuni have given us this beautiful lesson in the form of Mahabharat and least v could do is stop this nonsense debates..I don't think even Arjun(in heaven lol) would like if v talk shit about Karna and vice versa

Debating is fun and that hells to learn more

Plus what arjun thinks is his perspective why should i be bothered with it ?? I have my own opinion about karna. Its like saying that just because Ashoka would have had reconcile with sushima in heaven we loose the right to criticize him . If we can criticize duryodhan/shakuni/yudhishtra we can criticize karna too . Why only them every character is critized even drapaudi for things she didn't even do.

I was reading Vidur Niti and he criticizes Karan to no end😆

As a non Hindu whose perception can be built by tv shows, popular books and vision of directors, I am inclined towards Karn and that must be feeling if every individual who have not read real scripture. We cannot have real insights about other religion facts so I rely on somebody else vision. If I go by director's vision, yes they made Karn glorify in front of Arjun. We all know that we chose pandwas in front of dushasan gang but, one is in confusion when it comes to Karn vs Arjun.

His many antics were at fault be it with draupadi, be it his anger towards society or his mother but, it was all defended with what happened to him as a child. And on that basis, if draupadi was justified belittling him than ,he was justified as well in Sabah as both were human reactions. Either both can be wrong or both can be justified. Yes, we are sensitive over women's honour but,can't ignore the insults of a man as well.

As an interest, I read books on mahabharat but, I felt that all authors have same feelings for Karn as throne belong to him. I can't understand the real version but, as an outsider , the shows, popular books and opinion of people have made me a Karn fan as it was a grey character, with his flaws, confusions, pain and decisions.

Originally posted by: attiya1.3

As a non Hindu whose perception can be built by tv shows, popular books and vision of directors, I am inclined towards Karn and that must be feeling if every individual who have not read real scripture. We cannot have real insights about other religion facts so I rely on somebody else vision. If I go by director's vision, yes they made Karn glorify in front of Arjun. We all know that we chose pandwas in front of dushasan gang but, one is in confusion when it comes to Karn vs Arjun.

His many antics were at fault be it with draupadi, be it his anger towards society or his mother but, it was all defended with what happened to him as a child. And on that basis, if draupadi was justified belittling him than ,he was justified as well in Sabah as both were human reactions. Either both can be wrong or both can be justified. Yes, we are sensitive over women's honour but,can't ignore the insults of a man as well.

As an interest, I read books on mahabharat but, I felt that all authors have same feelings for Karn as throne belong to him. I can't understand the real version but, as an outsider , the shows, popular books and opinion of people have made me a Karn fan as it was a grey character, with his flaws, confusions, pain and decisions.

Hi

Just two things.

That sutputra comment is later interpolation. Drapaudi didn't say that karna was the one who lost in her Swamyvaar secondly sutputra was not an insult as modern perception perceive. And karna did lead a pretty comfortable life he had a great set of parents he was very much drona s student. He only went to pashurum because drona taught brahamastar only to arjuna because Arjuna was his best student. He was provided with kingdom on platter by a friend who he later betrays.

And no throne did not belong to him what krishna did was just to manipulate him and use his self centered nature against him.

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

.

Hi

Just two things.

That sutputra comment is later interpolation. Drapaudi didn't say that karna was the one who lost in her Swamyvaar secondly sutputra was not an insult as modern perception perceive. And karna did lead a pretty comfortable life he had a great set of parents he was very much drona s student. He only went to pashurum because drona taught brahamastar only to arjuna because Arjuna was his best student. He was provided with kingdom on platter by a friend who he later betrays.

And no throne did not belong to him what krishna did was just to manipulate him and use his self centered nature against him.

You are quite rude to Karn😅😂

But one cannot ignore his positive traits.

+ One cannot ignore extra efforts of Arjun guru to make him superior. We cannot ignore ek lavya, ignoring Karn...point is not who is best .point is who struggled to get there and who got things easily.

Secondly, I don't know about his betrayal. Can you brief me?

About Krishna...we cannot interpret it.

Btw.. he was eldest na...so if things got in right way, he would have been rightly for throne?

Originally posted by: attiya1.3

You are quite rude to Karn😅😂

But one cannot ignore his positive traits.

+ One cannot ignore extra efforts of Arjun guru to make him superior. We cannot ignore ek lavya, ignoring Karn...point is not who is best .point is who struggled to get there and who got things easily.

Secondly, I don't know about his betrayal. Can you brief me?

About Krishna...we cannot interpret it.

Btw.. he was eldest na...so if things got in right way, he would have been rightly for throne?

I am not i just see him as he was. And not what popular television potrayal makes him to be

look around you will find all these characters around you they are that real. .

And no Karna never struggled for knowledge that it s a myth. He was very much drona s student.

About betrayal i see it that way you may not. So you should read that up.

He was kunti s eldest who she gave up and was officially adopted by a adhirath so he can only inherit what his adopted father would have left for him and not the kuru throne

And krishna only wanted to manipulate him

Originally posted by: .Lonewalker.

@ Underlined: Sadly yes. It seems television shows are all about trps & these days audience love heroes who have been discriminated, looked down upon & still who have risen from the dust through his merit. So Karna's character is being modified to suit this type. Karna was a confused villain at best in my opinion.

@ Bold : Are you talking about the Virat war? Yes, arjun did single handedly defeat the whole Kuru Army, injured Karn severely and also cut the string of his bow which made Karn flee. And he also defeated many mighty warriors from Kuru army including Duryodhan, Dussasan, Vikarna, Dussaha, Aswathama etc & tired out Drona. Also Arjun used mystical astra, Sammohana, which puts everyone in the enemy army except Bhishma , in a trance. I think it's a great fit for any warrior to single handedly vanquish a whole army & bring victory.

And if you are talking about any other war, I would love to know more 😆

@ Orange : True. Karna was not cheated out of his kavach & kundal. First of all those kavach & kundal were divine weapons, originally from Swarga's weaponry. Surya Dev, Karna's father had taken them from there and gave it to him for his protection. Now during the Kurukshetra war, no one else had such extra protections, so karn having these extra, unbreakable gadgets were not really fair to others. If Karn had won thanks to these, it was hardly his credit. I think that was the reason Indra took it back from him. But he was not left high & dry. He was given another weapon named Vasava Shakti in its place which was a deadly weapon.

the mentioning was about the ghosh yatra during pandavas vanvas. dury and his gang got in trouble with some gandharvas , karn ran away fearing his life and dury was captured. arjun and bheem had to free him.