Originally posted by: AnkitaPurka66
Hi Brishti ( if I am not wrong), below are my points against yours:
@bold- He wanted only Arjun's death and to defeat him. He got enough respect (more than he deserved) and enough of materialistic pleasures too. Sorry, but someone whose aim in life is to kill another warrior just because he is celebrated and loved is sheer jealousy and narrow mindedness. So he was fighting for respect doesn't stand. You don't gain respect by undermining others or piting everything you have against him/her.
Did he get respect? When he lived? All the respect and the extra glorification happens today. He didn't get respect in his lifetime, and he wanted that.
That's what I meant.
Kavach or Kundal didn't make him invincible and definitely not immortal because there are several instances (I may quote) where he was defeated before this daan bit happened. Even Drupad, Dhristadyumna had defeated him. Arjun defeated him multiple times before this Daan occurred. So it was very much a trade. And he refuses to give away his Kavach Kundal and literally threatens Indra than without Shakti he wouldn't. And that weapon had the ability to kill Arjun. So it isn't just a one time use weapon. It was all Karna wanted in his life.
Then why did Indra had to intervene? If kavach kundal didn't matter pertaining to his life, then why did he need to come? Karna has been defeated with it, yes.
What was the specific need this time? Unless it is related to his life.
The two parts in bold don't coincide. XD You need to decide what you think Karna chose, Dharma or Duryodhana because the two are diametrically opposite.
Yes it's a contradiction: D. In trying to keep himself loyal to both Duryodhana and his newfound family who represents the side of Dharma, he ultimately wasn't 100 percent loyal to anyone. But that's the more fascinating the character gets for me.
His intent is good here.
Reservation is a different concept altogether. Karna wasn't low caste to begin with. And Drona didn't give him the Brahmastra knowledge only because he would use it to kill Arjun for no reason. At this stage, Arjun hadn't done anything wrong to him so wanting to kill him for jealousy makes no sense. Also Brahmastra was a divine weapon and it's use is recommended only for the greater good. Of course in today's terms any weapon of mass destruction can't do much good. But back then war was glorified. So wanting its knowledge just for killing someone is like saying I want a nuclear weapon because I want to kill my college competitor. XD
I don't know, as I replied to another poster, Drona's refusal to give him knowledge on Brahmastra or other celestial astra's is comparable to below scenario according to me, which is not justice at all.
Scenario : I want to learn Japanese. The instructor refuses to teach me because another Asian guy is better equipped to pick it up as he had a base knowledge of the language. So, how does the instructor know that I will not be as good as him if I practice right?
How did Drona know that Karna wants it to use celestial weapons for nefarious purposes?
@bold- she didn't. Karna wasn't invited in her Swayamvar in the first place and that was because he was a King via Daan. Draupadi cannot be blamed for being a princess and wanting to marry a prince.
He was as far as I know. His name was called out when introductions were going on.
@bold- let's talk history here. The status of women in Early Vedic Age was quite high because the advent of patriarchy came in the Later Vedic Age. This is backed by historical research, you might want to check. Mahabharata is an important source for the study of the Later Vedic Age, so it is in this age that position of women fall. And yes these men contributed to it. Also, it is basic respect. You cannot blame society for throwing such terribly disgusting comments about a woman in the middle of the court and enjoying her disrobing in open court. He only proves himself a jerk here.
No arguing here. No true fan of Karna will ever defend him in the DyutSabha. What's wrong is wrong.
@bold- Well he was not unarmed when he was killed. (i may quote). And please keep in mind Parashuram's curse which Karna got due to his own lies. Besides, if he was so good a warrior, he would not use unfair means himself to kill a young boy. Also, he was been defeated multiple times by Arjun and many others.
Source please? That he was armed.
1. Why Indra asked for KK? Same reason why Dron might have destroyed Ekalavya. To make sure hr doesn't use this power or benefit against the side he stood for. Dron asked for Eklavya's thumb for the same reason. He didn't want a Magadh warrior to use that knowledge for their benefit as he was teaching the KURU princes. (I however don't support it at all, he was wrong.) Also, if we consider Arjun was Indra's son, it is natural for any father to do this I guess xD. KK was an added benefit for him so it makes sense to ask for it, however it didn't make him invincible is my point, and this didn't give Arjun any special benefit.
2. Drona bit- He clearly expresses why he intends to learn about Brahmastra. If you say I want to learn Japanese and please give me a certificate in Japanese because I want to prove better than that chap, then a teacher won't be pleased with you. Brahmastra again, is considered divine and is to be used for a greater good as I said. Same doesn't apply for today's certificates. They are our personal gains. Celestial weapons were not the same. Hence, Drona did not feel it would be right to give him this knowledge to kill Arjun.
3. About his loyalty, that's your take. You may still love him and consider him good and that's your opinion. Fact is, he wasn't loyal exactly to either side. I just find it very narrow minded for someone to hate one this much to have his whole life revolve around defeating him when Arjun never did anything wrong to him.
4. Drau's Swayamvar- his name was mentioned but he came as Duryodhan's baraati. Not as a contestant. Also, many versions mention he was not successful in raising the bow. But it's controversial.
5. He got enough respect in his life. He did not face caste discrimination except once (if I accept Drau's comment as right). He was never really disrespected by anyone. I don't understand what other respect u are talking about here.
6. Source (KMG) of) Karn not being unarmed-
"Sanjaya continued, 'Thus addressed, O Bharata, by Vasudeva, Karna hung down his head in shame and gave no answer. With lips quivering in rage, he raised his bow, O Bharata, and, being endued with great energy and prowess, he continued to fight with Partha. Then Vasudeva, addressing Phalguna, that bull among men, said, "O thou of great might, piercing Karna with a celestial weapon, throw him down."
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