Why didn't Arjun protect Draupadi? - Page 14

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Nice discussion going on. But my point is would Panchal + Pandavas in laws army defeat Bheeshm and Drona? Yes both these people were killed due to the help of Panchal princes but still it was Bheeshm who gave Pandavas the idea that he wouldn't kill Shikhandi, would he do that to Panchal army?? In highly doubt. With Bheeshm in their side and no Arjun to counter, Kaurav army was nearly unbeatable.

Drona laid down his weapons and went into mourning because Yudhishtir told him that Ashwathama had died, with Yudhishtir on their side and without this planning, would he believe Dhristdhyumn that his son was dead and give him the chance for his Vadh?? I highly doubt it.

Panchal army did defeat Kauravas but it didn't include Drona and Bheeshm. Panchal warriors and even Satyaki were no match for them, with Arjun on their side (even non participating) the opposite party didn't have any match for them. Yes Krishna could have been an active participant there. But again Narayani Sena would have been split.

I feel that the dice game was the best bet for the Kauravas. Had they planned strategically, once Draupadi declared that she wasn't a slave since she was staked after Yudhishtir lost himself, they should have said that if they go with that consideration, then Panchali was an unmarried woman since a free woman can not be the wife of a slave. Considering her an unmarried woman, Dushashan got her (an unmarried woman) forcefully from her chamber to the royal court, so this would count as a Har Vivah, hence as per Dharma, Draupadi should be formally married to Dusshashan, if not then Draupadi is their slave and they can even order for her disrobe.

Going by the kind of people in the court, they would have quickly agreed for the marriage option.

Then it would have be a win win them, Pandavas their slaves and Panchal their in law so in their team, agreed Krishna and few Pandava in laws could have been against, but Krishna didn't have the complete Yadav support with Balram ji not in favour of going against Kauravas

You know Pandavas were doomed if it wasn't for Draupadi, She is responsible for their finance and themselves, They should have been more grateful to her than Yudhishtira asking her to put up with advances of that dude in King's court.

It sucks how someone like Draupadi has been reduced to Suta Putra and andhe ka beta andha comment, Will the masses ever get to know the real story?

The dyut Sabha scene is more of Cheer Haran scene where Krushna saves her and Every show I have seen heavily promoted it, I just wish they'd actually show what happened

Originally posted by: NoraSM

You know Pandavas were doomed if it wasn't for Draupadi, She is responsible for their finance and themselves, They should have been more grateful to her than Yudhishtira asking her to put up with advances of that dude in King's court.

It sucks how someone like Draupadi has been reduced to Suta Putra and andhe ka beta andha comment, Will the masses ever get to know the real story?

The dyut Sabha scene is more of Cheer Haran scene where Krushna saves her and Every show I have seen heavily promoted it, I just wish they'd actually show what happened

Yes exactly. Most questions around the MBH are more like: who was the best archer Karna or Arjuna?

Who was the best mace fighter Bhima or Duryodhana?

No one asks: who had the most flawless characters?

Probably the reason why Ved Vyasa in exasperation asks: if Dharma is so important, why is it not followed?

Originally posted by: NoraSM

You know Pandavas were doomed if it wasn't for Draupadi, She is responsible for their finance and themselves, They should have been more grateful to her than Yudhishtira asking her to put up with advances of that dude in King's court.

It sucks how someone like Draupadi has been reduced to Suta Putra and andhe ka beta andha comment, Will the masses ever get to know the real story?

The dyut Sabha scene is more of Cheer Haran scene where Krushna saves her and Every show I have seen heavily promoted it, I just wish they'd actually show what happened

You are right, even I sometimes feel that Draupadi wanted a court insult and was therefore infuriating the Chandal Chaukdi(KADUDUNI) by repeatedly disobeying them.

I know many would take this statement on the lines of "she was asking for it because she did...."

No here she actually wanted it. She knew that her husband has lost everything, and she knew that it was not easy to get everything back easily. She knew that as per Manusmriti a slave woman can not be humiliated in public and not be forced upon, else she gets entitled to three things what she wants from her master along with the freedom.

She literally wanted them to humiliate her there, unfortunately it went overboard and they actually tried to disrobe her(something I am sure she never imagined) but everything else was definitely something she wanted them to do

That's why I said, Kauravas should have played their cards well and ensured her marriage with Dusshashan then and there itself. But they completely lost to this lady.

You are right Dyut Sabha was the actual spot were the politics was changed in best possible manner, sadly it has been reduced to Cheer Haran to such an extent that both these terms have become synonymous

Originally posted by: Eloquent

Yes exactly. Most questions around the MBH are more like: who was the best archer Karna or Arjuna?

Who was the best mace fighter Bhima or Duryodhana?

No one asks: who had the most flawless characters?

Probably the reason why Ved Vyasa in exasperation asks: if Dharma is so important, why is it not followed?

Yeah

Before lockdown, Draupadi's mention was limited to her being married to 5 people and cheerharan scene. The more you read about her, the more it feels that she was braver for her and our time, she was definitely ahead of her time

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

You are right, even I sometimes feel that Draupadi wanted a court insult and was therefore infuriating the Chandal Chaukdi(KADUDUNI) by repeatedly disobeying them.

I know many would take this statement on the lines of "she was asking for it because she did...."

No here she actually wanted it. She knew that her husband has lost everything, and she knew that it was not easy to get everything back easily. She knew that as per Manusmriti a slave woman can not be humiliated in public and not be forced upon, else she gets entitled to three things what she wants from her master along with the freedom.

She literally wanted them to humiliate her there, unfortunately it went overboard and they actually tried to disrobe her(something I am sure she never imagined) but everything else was definitely something she wanted them to do

That's why I said, Kauravas should have played their cards well and ensured her marriage with Dusshashan then and there itself. But they completely lost to this lady.

You are right Dyut Sabha was the actual spot were the politics was changed in best possible manner, sadly it has been reduced to Cheer Haran to such an extent that both these terms have become synonymous

Yeah.

I would have totally voted for her to be my Prime Minister (After Modi Ji, of course 😋🙃)

How amusing the look on faces of men would have been there? They didn't consider women more than a commodity to serve their carnal needs, She gifted them their biggest defeat which led to their death.

I don't like how she spared Pandavas, It irks me that she stayed with them but again, she was politically equipped to know uses of men

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

You are right, even I sometimes feel that Draupadi wanted a court insult and was therefore infuriating the Chandal Chaukdi(KADUDUNI) by repeatedly disobeying them.

I know many would take this statement on the lines of "she was asking for it because she did...."

No here she actually wanted it. She knew that her husband has lost everything, and she knew that it was not easy to get everything back easily. She knew that as per Manusmriti a slave woman can not be humiliated in public and not be forced upon, else she gets entitled to three things what she wants from her master along with the freedom.

She literally wanted them to humiliate her there, unfortunately it went overboard and they actually tried to disrobe her(something I am sure she never imagined) but everything else was definitely something she wanted them to do

That's why I said, Kauravas should have played their cards well and ensured her marriage with Dusshashan then and there itself. But they completely lost to this lady.

You are right Dyut Sabha was the actual spot were the politics was changed in best possible manner, sadly it has been reduced to Cheer Haran to such an extent that both these terms have become synonymous

I think not. My interpretation of her character was that she relied on logic when confronting problems such as these.

Yudhisthira wanted her to come crying in the Dyut Sabha and beg Dhritarashtra to save her, thus calling on his pity/Kshatriya/Raj dharma of helping those who call for help etc.

Draupadi is furious and does not do this. Instead relies on her logic and innate understanding of dharma/law. She does not even consider begging, does not consider herself helpless/pitiable/victim. Questions like a Queen.

Unfortunately, her correct logical question hits at those four evil demons and their male ego as a woman is questioning them n that too a woman they consider their own slave.

Would Yudhisthira's way have resolved the issue? Yudhisthira's way was of the expected womanly, meek, docile behaviour while Draupadi's was of unflinching logic, bravery and was anything but docile.

With Yudhisthira's way, sequence of events would have been:

- Draupadi begging Dhritarashtra for mercy

- Him wringing his hands & asking her to beg to Duryodhana & ultimately debase herself

- Vidur begging also

- Duryodhana et al may have told her to go in the slave quarters

- Maybe her disrobing may not have occurred

Here is why I think Arjun (or any other Pandava) did not try to stop the cheer-haran:

1. The 5 brothers had become the slaves of Duryodhana and they had accepted this fact and never did they question the malicious and fraudulent tactics of Shakuni. Therefore, according to Das dharma, they could not disobey or raise voice against their master Duryodhana

2. They had lost their weapons, which were critical to their ability to fight, as is true with every kshatriya

3. While the 4 younger brother had to obey their elder brother, the elder brother knew that he had indeed lost Draupadi as per the law. This is because he believed that members of a family have a right over each other, so he could have lawfully staked Draupadi. Pls note he had staked his own brothers and himself before se staked Draupadi, so he respected her more than himself and his own brothers

4. While Bheem is often noted to make vows without deep thinking, Yudhishtir is a cool customer. He knows he cannot fight against the Kauravas as the Pandavas have surrendered their weapons. Moreover, Bhishma, Drona, Karna along with others could have easily shot them down if they had revolted then and there. That is why he smartly asked Draupadi to run into the hall crying and go strraight to Bheeshma and ask for mercy. This is repeated by him several times during the exile period

5. As far as Arjun is concerned, his words that have quoted too often in this thread were pretty useless as cheer haran had already happened. Surprisingly, no one has mentioned that he unequivocally supports Yudhishtir's stand when he calms down Bheem (his vow to burn Yudhishtir's hands). Even Bheem agrees with Yudhishtir's right to gamble Draupadi and that he did not deviate from his dharma

6. Now a deeper issue: The Pandavas and Draupadi were devoted to each to the hilt. So many times I have seen people taking the stand that Pandavas were ill-willed people, how could they do nothing, etc. But if you truly love someone, you understand them, their frailties, their predicaments, their difficulties. That is why Draupadi forgives the Pandavas then and there when she asks Dhritarashtra to release them. Just remember she had the option of releasing herself and going back to Panchala or to Krishna and forsaking the Pandavas. On the other hand, the Mahabharat text mentions that the Pandavas were agonised by seeing the sight of Draupadi like they never had been in their lives. Also note that the Pandavas fought a war against their own for Draupadi, but they never raised a question when Bheem was poisoned or when they along with their mother were sought to be killed in Varnavrat.

The Pandavas and Draupadi were one together and what transpired in the hall was a tragedy for all 6 of them and not just Draupadi as they all seethed in anger seeing what happened. That is why Lord Krishna never scolds or reprimands the Pandavas for what happened, rather he supports them in their war. The all-powerful and woman of substance Panchali therefore becomes the fire inside the Pandavs for abstracting revenge.

Double post

Originally posted by: shear_wall

Not quoting the whole long thing.

The numbers are NOT the same as the numbers for your points.

1. Panchali freed them. She didn't forgive them. She was also very clear she was doing it for Prativindhya, not Yudhishtira. In fact, she ripped into Yudhishtira after the dice hall. She also later said to Bheema women married to Yudhishtira will be miserable. She also called Yudhishtira a mad man who should've been locked up - this was after war.

2. Yudhishtira was no cool customer. He sent a message to Panchali to ask her to come with her "navel exposed" and cry to the king for mercy. She did the exact opposite.

3. Arjuna's words mattered. One, because he didn't speak until then as he was not clairvoyant to know what the enemy would do. When he saw it, he spoke up. Two, Duryodhana offered to free her if any of the younger Pandavas supported her claim to be a free woman. That's when Arjuna spoke. So yes, it mattered very much.

4. It wasn't Panchali's trauma alone? Oh, yes, it was. Yes, yes, absolutely yes. Just like if Panchali got into a car accident and broke her leg it would be she in pain and no one else, SHE got assaulted. Pandavas might have been humiliated, but SHE was the one who underwent the assault. To appropriate her pain for the Pandavas is to minimize sexual assault.

5. Arjuna does explode at Yudhishtira in Karna Parva with accusations of sitting on Panchali's bed and doing nothing while the rest of his family fought the war.

6. And yes, Krishna does blame Yudhishtira. Right before the mace fight between Bheema and Duryodhana, Krishna finally loses his cool and says with a brother like Yudhishtira, all of them were slated to wander in the wilderness.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Not quoting the whole long thing.

The numbers are NOT the same as the numbers for your points.

1. Panchali freed them. She didn't forgive them. She was also very clear she was doing it for Prativindhya, not Yudhishtira. In fact, she ripped into Yudhishtira after the dice hall. She also later said to Bheema women married to Yudhishtira will be miserable. She also called Yudhishtira a mad man who should've been locked up - this was after war.

2. Yudhishtira was no cool customer. He sent a message to Panchali to ask her to come with her "navel exposed" and cry to the king for mercy. She did the exact opposite.

3. Arjuna's words mattered. One, because he didn't speak until then as he was not clairvoyant to know what the enemy would do. When he saw it, he spoke up. Two, Duryodhana offered to free her if any of the younger Pandavas supported her claim to be a free woman. That's when Arjuna spoke. So yes, it mattered very much.

4. It wasn't Panchali's trauma alone? Oh, yes, it was. Yes, yes, absolutely yes. Just like if Panchali got into a car accident and broke her leg it would be she in pain and no one else, SHE got assaulted. Pandavas might have been humiliated, but SHE was the one who underwent the assault. To appropriate her pain for the Pandavas is to minimize sexual assault.

5. Arjuna does explode at Yudhishtira in Karna Parva with accusations of sitting on Panchali's bed and doing nothing while the rest of his family fought the war.

6. And yes, Krishna does blame Yudhishtira. Right before the mace fight between Bheema and Duryodhana, Krishna finally loses his cool and says with a brother like Yudhishtira, all of them were slated to wander in the wilderness.

@bold how fit was yudhishthir to be a king according to this then. was it just because he was elder? wasnt it supposed to be the one who was most fit to be on the throne