|| Aryavarta Chronicles Book Chat with Krishna Udayasankar || - Page 6

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KrisUdayasankar thumbnail
Posted: 9 years ago
#51
Hi Friends,
Combining responses here so as to maximize my limited posts:

1. Re Dharma:

I'm tempted to answer this in two ways. One is to give counter-instances which would affirm his "greed" though I dont want to call it that - for example, in the Vana Parva he confesses that he played because he wanted to win Hastina, even though he already had Indraprastha and its wealth at his disposal. Yes, he does feel sorry for others, but always also for himself. When it comes to action, he is more ambiguous. I am sure we are not the first bunch of people to debate on Dharma's virtue - a sticky deal given that he is the 'winner' and winners write history. For sure, I can't imagine Vaisampayana telling Janamejaya : "Your ancestor was a selfish, dubious guy."

The other option, which is what I stand by, is this: I still insist that Dharma of AC need not show penitence because he did nothing wrong. He is not evil. He is just a product of the system - just as we are when we want to argue to keep the epic as we know it, with Dharma in his lauded role. Does that make us bad?

2. Uttar - actually, I checked many times - the number of sons mentioned for virat, the names of the sons, references in war - all together it seemed more plausible that either Uttar or Uttara existed, but not both. One seems to be an interpolation.

3. Syoddhan has many faults - To say the least, he is stubborn, he is mindlessly partial to his brothers, he refuses to stand up for what he believes is right... he is just not a conventional 'demon' or evil incarnate, but he is not at all a man without faults!

4. Am adding this here (again to economize on posts): I wonder if we have become so caught up with the larger than life versions of the epics, that we think our heroes (e.g. Arjuna) are being short-changed when they don't do all the magical things we associate with them. I say this because I dont see Partha of the AC as less heroical at all - he is brave, he shows growth, his surrender/ trust in Govinda is complete, he defeats the best of the best in battle, and his prowess as a marksman is never in doubt. I also think we are not used to seeing some others (e.g. Asvattama, Shikandin) get their fair due, and so by comparison, the hero-factor feels skewed. But mainly, we are too used to the epic as larger-than-life, its characters as heroes for their actions. I think they are heroes for their courage and intent.

Edited by KrisUdayasankar - 9 years ago
AnuMP thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#52

Balcony scene from Aryavarta Chronicles. Circa, first year of marriage.

Panchali reveled in the feel of the light spray on her face, the smell of wet earth and the strong steady breeze. How good it is to be alive, she thought. Closing her eyes, she soaked up the sensations - the rain, the wind, the touch of a hand on her shoulder, on her bare waist, the feel of a strong body against hers, of gentle lips, now warm on the soft skin of her neck, now whispering in her ear, 'Panchali ...'

She felt her heart thudding wildly as he drew her closer, his words and actions leaving little doubt about his desire. Panchali had heard much gossip about his exceptional lovemaking skills and how he could seduce any woman into submission. Now he wanted her. Partha wanted her. Part of her felt grim satisfaction at this proof that Dharma's disgust on their wedding night had not been her fault, but his own. In husky whispers and with promise-laden words Partha gently reminded her of how he had won her, of the way they had held hands in anticipation of a lifetime together - a lifetime that he wanted to offer her still


Panchali gasped with muted pleasure at his determined touch as he made her turn to face him. She wanted desperately to believe his reassurances, his declarations, the words of affection. She let her fingers slide softly up Partha's arms and as he pulled her closer still she wrapped her arms around his neck. Even as she instinctively responded to his attentions, the vague sliver of a reflection came to her mind.

Govinda.

The image jolted her out of her trance. Her eyes flashed open; panic, guilt, desire, rage, all coursed through her in a searing mix, leaving her weak and limp.

Weak? Never! She felt something inside her rise in rebellion.

"No!' she cried out and pushed Partha away. She took a few steps back, until she felt the wall behind her. She turned away, resting her forehead against the wall, focussing on the sensation of the cold stone touching her skin.


The sound of Partha's rough breathing told her that he was still there but she could not bring herself to look at him. After what felt like an eternity she heard him say, I'm sorry.' She waited, unmoving, till she heard his footsteps fade away.

Slowly Panchali turned around, glad for the way raindrops stung her face. She did not understand why she had almost given into Partha's touch. Or maybe, she admitted with a sigh, she did. Maybe she had just wanted to know that she was not detestable, forbidden or sinful, to Dharma, to anyone

Edited by AnuMP - 9 years ago
ssroomani thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#53

Originally posted by: KrisUdayasankar

Dear Friends,

Thank you all very much for inviting me to be a part of your discussion here. I really loved reading your questions, and hope to do some justice to them.

Please find below a pretty long post in which I try to cover some of the main/ recurrent questions so far. My intent here is to a) allow us to move deeper into these issues, or move forward with new questions in the evening's chat and b) make the most of the ten posts per day that I am currently restricted to L

Consequently, I will also have to combine reponses to your questions later on too.

I have not directly addressed some of the more detailed questions some of you have posed. I shall go through the posts again over the next some days and try to cover what has been missed.

Thank you for your patience with me, and if I have inadvertently not responded to you, please do feel free to post your query again.

Now, on to the questions (and my attempt at answers):

Negative (really?) portrayal of Dharma 😊

Let me say this, many of the statements Dharma makes are taken directly from the KMG ed, sometimes even the critical ed. I too was initially shocked to find that Dharma's behaviour was not always consistent with the picture that was painted of him. But I feel I've done little extra to make him seem negative, and this is really the impression he gives of himself, when we view him from contemporary perspectives.

For example, Dharma does not believe himself to be in the least error in staking his subjects at dice - not even after the war. If you went and asked him today, he'd probably protest saying he did no wrong (I think there was a question about why he does not repent). He does not repent because he thinks he does right. And I agree that he is undoubtedly principled and honest about that. Nowhere have I said that he did wrong. All the other characters say is that his beliefs, which are representative of the larger system, are wrong. Dharma is a symbol of the (then and now) existing hierarchy. And that structure is, I think you'll agree, not a positive one at all.


I understand your point that Govinda did make mistakes and some of his plans backfire as a result. I have not yet read the Book 3, but from the posts here, it looks like Govinda continues to favor Dharma as the emperor. Why does he repeat the mistake he made earlier? 😕 If there is an answer in Book 3, please don't answer this...I am yet to read that book and would like to keep it in suspense until then! 😛


I am not convinced with the answer to negative portrayal of Dharma. Yes, Yudhishthir also made a lot of mistakes in the original epic, but he did repent (there are citations already provided in the other posts, so I won't repeat them). In fact according to my understanding, MB is the story of Yudhisththira, it is his Jaya (victory over everything including himself) which is being told. I do feel that his portrayal in the book is rather unfair to the epic character.


I never felt epic Arjuna (Partha) was a "womanizer". As already mentioned, I have not read the Book 3 yet, so will not comment further on this. Arjun does change from Book 1 to 2, so I will wait to discover more in the next book. 😊


The question about Panchaali being childless was just curiosity! 😆 I also don't hold the view that only motherhood completes a woman! 😛


Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. I am still not convinced about Dharma's portrayal. If possible, do say something more on this!

😊

EDIT: I see another post on the previous page on Dharma. I find it difficult to accept it, but I respect your view point! Thank you.
Edited by ssroomani - 9 years ago
AnuMP thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#54
Durvasa incident during VP - also interpolation?
The Nagastra / Takshak part of Karna parva. General thought is that the chariot was made to sink. I was expecting something like G made the horses kneel. Is the interp in AC based on available scripts?

One more - Jaydrath vadh. I got a little confused by that. I had taken it to mean Dury had hidden Jaydrath within the Pandav army. But then G/Pr wouldnt need the cover of the eclipse. If he was hidden within the Kaurav army, then Pr WAS doing the right thing (though unsuccessfully) by directly attacking, correct?
Edited by AnuMP - 9 years ago
KrisUdayasankar thumbnail
Posted: 9 years ago
#55
Thanks all for your continued participation and your wonderful responses.
Yes, the Dharma issue is something that I think merits a longer response, and I shall post one more on it in the coming days - request your patience till then.

But I will say this much for now: MB is Dharma's story, because that is the winner's version which remains. In fact, the little that survives of Jaimini's version, ASFAIK, shows the brothers in a different light, post-war. Personally, I think of the AC as the story of those times, a story of revolution. Plus, if it is the story of characters, then it is the story of Govinda and Panchali. I dont claim, ever, to retell the Mahabharata, in fact, I keep saying that it is a reconstruction of the events surrounding the epic. So while I understand and appreciate your positions on Dharma Yudhisthir, I think we may not be so much at cross-purposes as it seems.

To address the point on why Govinda continues to support Dharma - yes, its covered in KK, but I dont think I reveal spoilers if I say that by the end of Kaurava, Govinda had reached a point where he is thinking in terms of the system, not individuals - he knows that the decision to dethrone dharma must be reversed - even though it brings the unfortunate consequence of reinstating Dharma to power. But the former is worse than the latter. Sorry if it seems cryptic, but don't want to spoil KK for those as yet to read it.

Finally - please folks, feel free to call me Krishna. There is no need for formality between those who share a common passion in the story behind the story 😃
DharmaPriyaa thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#56

Pardon me, Mam, but I have to say that epic Yudhishthir is a storehouse of goodness! Even your Syodhan Kauravya owes his white character to epic Yudhishthir! The nobility, calmness, decision-making power, all virtues of a good ruler, whichever is seen in your Syodhan, IMHO, all are borrowed from epic Yudhi just to pour them into Syodhan, and those made his character so lovable. To tell the truth, if any living being is created with epic Yudhi's virtues, it must attract all human hearts, which is the glory of epic Yudhi's endless piety!

You elaborated all his flaws so much & completely deleted his good activities, sorry, very sorry, but I find it is injustice to him! His fault was only of one day, but his virtues are endless, they are found almost in every page of epic! IMHO, If we take all his goodness as interpolation & all flaws as authentic then it is unfair. (May I claim that all his flaws actually were interpolations? No, because it will look like I'm trying to defend him by unfair means. That's equally true from the reverse side also, that much only I can say)

If all good activities are hidden from a certain person's life and only his flaws are highlighted with such exaggeration then none will be able to resist hating him.

As for winners writing history, how much the history will be changed? So much that a completely black character becomes completely white? I think it's not possible even by partiality to a certain character. Also, ancient sages were honest, why would they do so much whitewash to Yudhishthir unnecessarily?


Sorry, very sorry, I respect your POV but I will remain firm at my POV. Hope I have freedom to do this. Thank you for replying!
KrisUdayasankar thumbnail
Posted: 9 years ago
#57

Originally posted by: AnuMP

Durvasa incident during VP - also interpolation?

AFAIK

The Nagastra / Takshak part of Karna parva. General thought is that the chariot was made to sink. I was expecting something like G made the horses kneel. Is the interp in AC based on available scripts?

Unfortunately, making the horses kneel would not bring the chariot lower - there is no way (short of miraculous) that that can happen 😃

One more - Jaydrath vadh. I got a little confused by that. I had taken it to mean Dury had hidden Jaydrath within the Pandav army. But then G/Pr wouldnt need the cover of the eclipse. If he was hidden within the Kaurav army, then Pr WAS doing the right thing (though unsuccessfully) by directly attacking, correct?

He was hidden at the very front of Syoddhan's army. So if G and P kept moving ahead, they would effectively be cut off from J by Syoddhan's army on one side and Dharma's army on the other.

Word Count: 1

LiveYourDream thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#58
Jayadrath getting the boon from Shiva to be able to stop the Pandavas, except Arjun for a day? And the boon his father had? All later additions/modifications?

From Kurukshetra , it reads like Abhimanyu died simply because the Kauravas had a better strategy that particular day in the war and not due to the heroics of Jayadratha alone...
Maverick_me thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#59

Originally posted by: KrisUdayasankar

Dear Friends,

Thank you all very much for inviting me to be a part of your discussion here. I really loved reading your questions, and hope to do some justice to them.

Please find below a pretty long post in which I try to cover some of the main/ recurrent questions so far. My intent here is to a) allow us to move deeper into these issues, or move forward with new questions in the evening's chat and b) make the most of the ten posts per day that I am currently restricted to L

Consequently, I will also have to combine reponses to your questions later on too.

I have not directly addressed some of the more detailed questions some of you have posed. I shall go through the posts again over the next some days and try to cover what has been missed.

Thank you for your patience with me, and if I have inadvertently not responded to you, please do feel free to post your query again.

Now, on to the questions (and my attempt at answers):

Why did Govinda choose Dharma to marry Panchali/ become Emperor?

Many of you have pointed out possible reasons, and all of these are, to some extent part of the larger web. Govinda's distrust of Syoddhan's brothers, the intent to put a Kuru on the throne... all of these are part of the web of reasons. I will add one more:

What we must also remember is that Govinda was not working in isolation, but was working to weave his own plans around those of Vyasa and other players. He did the best he could with what he had. He wasn't always right, and he knew it, which is why he descends into despair when things backfire. But at the end of it all, he discovers a deeper strength and meaning that brings him back to Kurukshetra.

Negative (really?) portrayal of Dharma 😊

Let me say this, many of the statements Dharma makes are taken directly from the KMG ed, sometimes even the critical ed. I too was initially shocked to find that Dharma's behaviour was not always consistent with the picture that was painted of him. But I feel I've done little extra to make him seem negative, and this is really the impression he gives of himself, when we view him from contemporary perspectives.

For example, Dharma does not believe himself to be in the least error in staking his subjects at dice - not even after the war. If you went and asked him today, he'd probably protest saying he did no wrong (I think there was a question about why he does not repent). He does not repent because he thinks he does right. And I agree that he is undoubtedly principled and honest about that. Nowhere have I said that he did wrong. All the other characters say is that his beliefs, which are representative of the larger system, are wrong. Dharma is a symbol of the (then and now) existing hierarchy. And that structure is, I think you'll agree, not a positive one at all.

Arjun/Partha

We are used to thinking of the epic characters as one-dimensional, perfect from the get go, and that, IMHO is a disservice to their true heroic natures. Heroes are those who rise above themselves, who learn and grown. And that is what happens with Partha - he is the symbol of... well you and I, really. People who are not Govinda, but who realize that life is all about trying to get there. Over the three books, Partha is one of the characters who changes the most - from being a womaniser' to someone who is clear and noble in through and intent. But to see this characters growth, you'd have read all three books J

The same goes for his relationship with Govinda. It evolves over time (and the books). Also, Partha was the only one to say anything in question of Dharma's authority at the dice game (other than Bhim's ineffectual rants) - something that would certainly serve to strengthed the bond between Govinda and Partha - not just emotionally, but also at a rational, philosophical level.

As for his getting educated' on flame tailed and flame-tipped arrows by Uttara - why is that such a shock. I doubt a truly noble warrior such as he would have had ego-issues when it came to knowledge of that sort. It doesn't diminish Partha in the least that there are things he does not know - he is willing to learn, that is more valuable than all knowledge he holds.

Why is Panchali childless?

First, let me state for the record that I personally object to the notion that a childless Panchali is incomplete.' Women are not defined by their wombs alone. She is completely capable of being a mother - not just to Abhimanyu - but a woman who feels like mother-like compassion beyond ties of blood and kin. At the same time, she does not have to be a mother, to be deserving of our compassion. She is human, that is all that matters.

Second, both timelines as well as event descriptions are pretty sketchy when we come to the Upa-Pandavas. Nor, as you all know, do the five have any major roles to play. I remember a statement which, roughly rendered, said "by giving each of her husbands a child she fulfilled her duty to them." - suggesting it was put in as a matter of propriety. Otherwise, it does seem quite a feat to deliver exactly one child each with calendar precision, and then have no further children, no?

Missing events

One word answer: Interpolation 😊

Please see my blog (I can't post the link here coz Im a newbie) for more on this.

The War

Why war? What purpose did it serve? Why did Panchali want it? Why did Govinda want it? These are precisely the questions that made me begin writing The Aryavarta Chronicles. How could rational and compassionate individuals like these two want or sanction the killing of hundreds of thousands. Many years and 500K words later, I have an answer, though I do not claim it is the only answer: revolution.

Thanks, and look forward to continuing the discussion!

PS. The books are not available in the US because the publisher does not have US rights (ie US rights available for sale, hint hint!)

Thank you for answers Krishna ,
Abou childless Panchali, while I agree to some extent women are not child producing machines but they feeling whether motherhood or otherwise making them feel complete or not, is purely relative and differs from person to person; there are women who feel incomplete without having a child of their own womb , and its not wrong if they feel that way.
Draupadi-Krishnaa is referred as the glorious Aditi, mother of Adtiyas in epic but modern interpretations don't do justice on this aspect of hers and not necessarily her sons should do well in wars and that becomes a reason they don' get mentioned, now that's stereotyping 😳😉
About Arjun , his glorious deeds have been underestimated already , its not that epic makes him an instant hero , he develops gradually into a hero and grows in stature by hard work and his hard work wins over his guru .
Making Uttara a warrior so that she gives some gyan to Arjun ??, ok!
Actually I always believe Its Shikhandini not Shikhandi, who felled the greatest Kuru Bhishma and that was something later editors or interpolators couldn't digest , even medieval history has example of warring queens being shown with beards..
About Dharma , well if he staked subjects and their wealth , he returned it and distributed in Ashwamedha yajna multifold ,irrespective of who it was
Prince Uttar is not an interpolation , he and his brother Shveta have couple of surviving children
Iravati is his daughter (Vayu Puran) of course unless it qualifies as source 😊
KrisUdayasankar thumbnail
Posted: 9 years ago
#60

Originally posted by: Urmila11

Pardon me, Mam, but I have to say that epic Yudhishthir is a storehouse of goodness! Even your Syodhan Kauravya owes his white character to epic Yudhishthir! The nobility, calmness, decision-making power, all virtues of a good ruler, whichever is seen in your Syodhan, IMHO, all are borrowed from epic Yudhi just to pour them into Syodhan, and those made his character so lovable. To tell the truth, if any living being is created with epic Yudhi's virtues, it must attract all human hearts, which is the glory of epic Yudhi's endless piety!

You elaborated all his flaws so much & completely deleted his good activities, sorry, very sorry, but I find it is injustice to him! His fault was only of one day, but his virtues are endless, they are found almost in every page of epic! IMHO, If we take all his goodness as interpolation & all flaws as authentic then it is unfair. (May I claim that all his flaws actually were interpolations? No, because it will look like I'm trying to defend him by unfair means. That's equally true from the reverse side also, that much only I can say)

If all good activities are hidden from a certain person's life and only his flaws are highlighted with such exaggeration then none will be able to resist hating him.

As for winners writing history, how much the history will be changed? So much that a completely black character becomes completely white? I think it's not possible even by partiality to a certain character. Also, ancient sages were honest, why would they do so much whitewash to Yudhishthir unnecessarily?


Sorry, very sorry, I respect your POV but I will remain firm at my POV. Hope I have freedom to do this. Thank you for replying!


Hi Urmila,

Yes, I think we may have to agree to disagree on this. Even if you wish to admit only one day of error on Dharma's part, it was a most heinous and reprehensible error, and one he compounded by constantly trying to avoid the consequences that it brought him.

As for ancient rishis telling the truth - well, to be honest I lost my reverence the day I read Vyasa/Dharma's vividly sexual description of Panchali in multiple places. Either one of these gentlemen has to take responsibility for that, no?
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