Athiratha's need to stop Karan - Page 3

Rasyafan

^^ Can dharma be different in a different time? If it is something that changes with time or place then it is relative and not absolute. If the charioteers were not seen picking up some weapons during war because they were deprived of learning a particular skill then the blame only lies with the powerful who tried to subdue the less fortunate by refusing to impart knowledge and skills on the pretext of parentage! Now how dharmic was it to do that !

peridot

@Sabhayata

Originally posted by: snehalS

@Sabhayata

i somehow disagree here on that charioteers were not allowed to learn & practice archery ...may be I have not read enough thus m lacking any proof events

what keeps me questioning is ...if Karna's learning Archery and fighting with Kshatriya's was considered Adharma by Drona and society ...coz him being charioteer..then his crowning as King later and then taking part in MB from the side which Drona also fought would be very serious unacceptable Adharma...which no one should have accepted...further no other person except Drona I am aware of who acted or spoke against Karna...in fact Krupacharya was Karna's Guru at Hastinapur...in the war of MB a Kshatriya king accepted to be Karna's charioteer...other dharmaguru's of the time never came out with any such argument...Karna later on became a Digvijayee king

the point i am trying to make is that ...karna's archery and warrior skills were not treated as Adharma by many important people of that time and society as whole as well...it was a few people like Drona...who out of their selfish motives did so...

Sneha right if one went to fight battle or to be a chareetor then every body had to be best fighters even if the king himself is maha maha rathi but he can alwas let down by a chareetor if he does not know the art of battle. So every shoulder had to know how to use each weapon and almost all sorts of marshal arts.

These kings planned their battles with so much finese that they took great care ki ek halki si galti ki wajah se chook na ho jaye and they should not loose that battle.

I studied in great detail how battles were planned and what sort of terms and conditions were there to fight those battles and nobody would dare to go against those.

For them battle was like game or a contest and they used to follow each and every rule by thebook.

Dron had his selfish reasons for not accepting Karn Sneha he only wanted Arjun to be the best archer bcoz he was his guru.

But Look at his black deeds today the whole world doubts if Arjun was the best indeed there was Karn as well as Eklavya.

Well I certainly am asking today that question is there alright.

So for Dron it was just an excuse that karn being a low caste.

As for Bheeshm he knew alright who Karn was right form the begining and therefore, he never wanted Pandavs to fight with their elder brother. That is why he asked Duryodhan that as long as I am fighitng this battle and am alive Karn will not fight this battle.

I will tell you one more thing. Varnrastha did divide people into 4 goups but people from each group would continue to move upwords or down words as per teir karm and sins. Raja Harishchandra was such example he was a King but bcoz of curse he became a sudra and used to carry out funerals. He was tested by Vishwamitra rishi who was a king but became a brahman and did a lot of meditation and he challenged gods Indra and all that I will proove that humans are much better and shakti shali then you gods and by god he did that he was the only one human who used to swarg with his body intact otherwise humans cannot go to heaven without dying

THerefore, Rishi took Harishchandra's pariksha and prooved himself.

There are several examples where kshatriyas became brahmans vaishyas became kshatriyas or brahman etc.

This movement was called Sanskritization by M S Srinivasan who is a professor in Indian Social Studies and Anthropology etc sorry don't remember I studied a long time back. Bahut kuchh bhool gayee me 😭😭

besides people would learn how to protect themselves just bcoz kshatriyas were warriors and had to fight war doesnt mean that a vaishyas was not supposed to protect himself.

Kshatriyas cannot be everywhere to protect people 😕

Originally posted by: Justlikethat1

How valid was his concern about Karan's skills on the Dhanur? 😕

MB had many warriors and not all were Kshatriyas. They were not considered a threat. Also this was one parva, where the man was decided on his skills and his way of life.

To my understanding, charioteers like Athiratha and Sanjaya were themselves highly skilled in the art of war. They used their skills when they rode the chariot during war and helped their masters in it. So why is Athiratha being so hyper about Karan and his skills?

I do not think it is true that Athiratha wanted Karan to discontinue his practice of Dhanur.. Athiratha was just afraid like a normal father would be about the way Karan's ambitions grew. He being a charioteer's son, Athiratha, to my knowledge did not want Karan to face disappointment when his dreams would not be met.. that was the only reason Athiratha asked Karan to think before he went around challenging Kshatriyas.. But have never heard about what was shown today.. So about today, I have 2 questions

1. Is it true that Athiratha wanted Karan to discontinue his practice of Dhanur?
2. If true, how valid was his concern? I get a feeling that any king would not overlook a talent like one of Karan's even if he was a Sutra.. So was Athiratha valid about his fears?

Snehal

Trust me i am no expert on Mahabharat as well.All that I have stated is what i have read and seen. And as per that i have never read in MB true charioteer's picking up weapons to save their master even in Mahabharata i have seen i have never seen foot soldiers using archery. I have read Jaya:retelling of Mahabharata by devdutt patnaiK in which he clearly states that as per dharma son's were suppose to follow their father's trade and he also clearly states that archery was a skil of elite .As per other versions of MB that i have read which i have pasted about archery was supposed to be learnt by only brahmins and kshtariays.Even Drona was reprimanded by brahma that he took up arms as an kshtariya and left brahmin dharma(pashuram was an exception).Now these are what i have read and seen as per which athirtah's reluctance to let karan learn arcehry is not completely illogical or invalid because some scholars and interpreters also believe the same. Like i said i am no expert on MB or Vedic times maybe there are some articles that show charioteer's taking up or learning weapons or some interpretation where its believed that archery wasnt skill of elite i dont know since i am not an expert who has read everything but atleast i havent read anything like this.

Now as for the points you have raise there was nor rule as per which duryodhan could make karna a king it was one of those things that duryodhan did and dhridhrasjtra being blindly in love with his son accepted it or didn't say anything against ist Drona wasn't the only one against him pandavas were also against him and during the rangbhoomi said that he cant participate because he is a charioteer's son not only drona as afar as some interpretations I have read even bheeshm did.In MB the kashtriya king who became his charioteer was by mistake ,Hew as actually a relative of pandnavas and wanted to join pandavas but by mistake went to kaurvas camp and ate their food and hence was obliged to them .And as he couldn't raise his weapons against pandvas he accepted to become karan's charioteer since he would have to take up weapons in that case. Again another example of the fact that maybe charioteer's weren't allowed to take up weapons

Even if you think that karan learning archery wasn't adharam take it more as what was acceptable in society at that time. For example i today's world a taxi driver will not encourage his son to fall in love with a millionaire's daughter nor will a millionaire encourage his daughter to fall for a taxi drivers son .There is no written rule against it is what's acceptable in society or what not so maybe you can see athirath's concern from that POV. Again I am not saying what i am saying is 100% right i could be wrong but i am basing my arguments on what i have read and seen and as per that athirath's concern are not completely illogical or CV'S imagination

And if any one can tell me examples of chariooter's true charioteer's learning arcehry or taking up weapons in MB i would be happy to learn and know

Originally posted by: rasyafan

I will tell you one more thing. Varnrastha did divide people into 4 goups but people from each group would continue to move upwords or down words as per teir karm and sins. Raja Harishchandra was such example he was a King but bcoz of curse he became a sudra and used to carry out funerals. He was tested by Vishwamitra rishi who was a king but became a brahman and did a lot of meditation and he challenged gods Indra and all that I will proove that humans are much better and shakti shali then you gods and by god he did that he was the only one human who used to swarg with his body intact otherwise humans cannot go to heaven without dying

THerefore, Rishi took Harishchandra's pariksha and prooved himself.

There are several examples where kshatriyas became brahmans vaishyas became kshatriyas or brahman etc.

This movement was called Sanskritization by M S Srinivasan who is a professor in Indian Social Studies and Anthropology etc sorry don't remember I studied a long time back. Bahut kuchh bhool gayee me 😭😭

besides people would learn how to protect themselves just bcoz kshatriyas were warriors and had to fight war doesnt mean that a vaishyas was not supposed to protect himself.

Kshatriyas cannot be everywhere to protect people 😕

Originally posted by: snehalS

thanks for sharing this info...I really want search till the bottom for what exactly was Varna-dharma/Varna-sanstha...

yes you are people must learn to protect them ...coz Kshatriya cannot be everywhere to protect...like in todays time people learn to fire guns...without anybody teaching or even allowing them

You are welcome Sneha

Here is the link about Varn System which we today call caste system
I have posted this information go through it and see for yourself how different it is from what we today are being lied upon continueously to divide our hindus

https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/topic/3770620

This will tell you how in initial times people used to live in harmony without any division in philosophy duties towards mankind thoughts actions only their responsibilities were divided and heirarchy used to befollowed which is today in every society every household organistaion institute and without which there would be no social orders.

A smallest unit of this world a family of two parents and their kids also follow this herarchy which which there would be no respect in the family for each other.

Today if we want to save our country everyone needs to know the truth about this system and the lies we are continuoesly being told need to be stopped. Only we can do that by spreadign knowledge about it.

As for what happened with Karn and Eklavya they were discriminated because of their jati or varn, then remmebr it is a story of selfish people who were brave yet would not stoop to cheat others to have their own ways and to win, that is what Drona Charya was.

But what he did was not according to the tenets of Sanatan Dharm. It is a human society and will always have dharm as well as adharm does not mean it is a law in Sanatan Dharm.

The sages who laid down the foundation of Sanatan Dharm had laid down rules to get harmony in human world which some human used to follow and some didn't even today it is happening.

Had their not been adharm then how would anyone know the meaning of dharm???? If everyone follows dharm then the Mahabharat would not have happened ever neither Ramayana or any of the Purans would have been written. The shristi of god would have been long disappeared in slumber. 😆 You and me would never have even met to discuss the Mahabharat

Yes Everyone used to learn archery and other weapons may be not to fight wars but to protect themselves without choosing it as their profession. Bow and Arrow was a weapon mostly used by every caste and more practiced, if not for profession then certainly for self protection. Only Kshatriyas were not the soul owners of this art or elite. Whoever went to war was supposed to be perfect in the battle and war and the more knowledge and practice of weapons the better itwas for the kings.