Cultural Treasure Should Be Returned? - Page 4

By the way, British DID NOT reduce the rigid cast system during the time but the fact that they were there MADE us join hands together and all that jagriti stuff you were saying started.
Tell me when do you really hear about the people spreading messages to stop the caste system? When they find a different motive to fight for the Independence. Remeber those Ambedkar ji, Gandhi ji etc etc...The point is even though British directly did no mean to do it, their presence made us realize the fact that we were all Indians.
Yep, I admit it has not completly wiped away yet..but it is much lesser than the way it was before (gotta admit that!).

Also, about Bahadur Shah Zafar. He was terribly weak. He got defeated which is how English conqured the large Moghal empire. Still, if the English had not come, the kingdom would still have collapsed...it was weak. Also, think about it..who were/ are the majority in India? The Hindus. But who were ruling? The Muslims. That already makes the whole system weak due to the lack of support since the Muslims were ruling the Hindus (and when in our entire history did they ever like that?). No matter what your History books say, Moghal rule was weak and would not have stayed much longer.

Coming back to the British..how they helped us. Well, they obviously by spreading the language of English. Oh ok may be you are one of those who despise the fact that they imposed English on us. Remeber, every part of India spoke a different language before them. The fact that we could later all speak in English gave us a common ground to unite and to share. By the way, Sanskrit was not spoken then (in the midst of the Muslim rule? no way). Anyways, back to English. You know how many Chinese that come to US suffer because they don't know English? Atleast, the Indians that come don't have to face that much problem. My grandpa, who only studied until 3rd grade knows much better English than some of the Chinese immigrants that I have met here in US. I believe in preserving our Indian languages too but I'm just saying that our knowledge of English language has become one of our strengths today in everything from travelling to places to gettting a job.
I'm almost sure that if we were not invaded by the English then, we would just have been invaded by someone else..either the French, Soviet Union, China or Japan. If not democratic, we would have been communist.


I don't know what makes you think that I don't know the actual history (maybe I don't know all the tiny details) but believe me I have studied Indian history too. I make sure that whatever I say here is backed up by an article online or one of the history books I have.

Originally posted by: SolidSnake

find some positive in Hitler or Holocaust, or US nuking Hiroshima/Nagasaki or Russian Gulags or Mao's Cultural Revolution or Japanese occupation of China, or the Slavery in US or.....

That's irrelevant. Most were dictators or tried to prove their supremacy in the worldand will be black-marked in history. I am talking about our country's history. Since ages our country has been invaded by the Greeks, Islams, Turks, Persians, Afghans and then the British. We faced rampage, destruction and plunder from these other groups. What good did they serve? Why not curse them too? Like them the British also came for their own interest. They oppressed us and did massacre(who can forget incidents like Jalianwala bagh) for their selfish motives. If you go through any widely known country's history, those countries hardly escaped any blood-shed and subjugation. What I am trying to say is that though it's sad on India's fate but the British rule served us in some areas too and it hurts our pride to accept that.

Slavery in US is of course condemnable. But it has a good effect(after) too.  Don't you think times have been changing for good. It's becuase the Africans were brought in here in large no., slowly slowly their life is changing too. And they are trying to help others in their community. The progress is not prominent because most of the the Amerian-Africans don't show much interest in eduction. Can you imagine life in Africa now? The way they are suffering there - corruption, brutal murder and gang rape.

Agree Pardarshak, that may be western culture sharpened our minds. But do not agree that it happened just because we were slaves. Th etiming and method could have been different, but social reform always takes place. it became worst during british Raj and we are still recovering from it. May be our civil war would have given us better chance to fight for society or may be would have taken us more back then we are today. You cannot deny that due to slavery, we had a halt in our economy and growth for two hundred years. Whereas in Gupta, maurya, Mughal yes we were being rules but we were still progressive. Where as with British rule, a developed nation is now under developed nation. We are atleast behind 100 yrs then we could have been. Still our major concerns of conflict in caste & religion is there.
Yes as we study, our views change and may be our studies could have impact the little minds with caste system, may be it would have become worst..who knows. but to say that it improved due to slavery..i find it hard to justify it as a good impact on our society. The damage is so severe that we are still bleeding.
The social reform would have still come..may be by same reformers like Swami Vivekanad ji or Tilak ji.Instead of fighting, they would have struggled for social reforms . Not sure if you heard how Britishers rules in small zamidarri system by your grandfather's brother. My father used to narrate stories that they di d in our village. Unfortunately my great grandfather was a part of it too. Every 15the August he used to cry happily remebering all they did jointly and how everone was distributing free mithai etc and dancing on streets that day.

Not everyone stil treats their servants with equal right. Glad that you do. In most houses, They even have seperate utensils to eat or drink. We still need People like Swami ji who can brain wash us all and stop this Quota and bring all human being to equal status. 😃

Originally posted by: Swar_Raj

Agree Pardarshak, that may be western culture sharpened our minds. But do not agree that it happened just because we were slaves. Th etiming and method could have been different, but social reform always takes place. it became worst during british Raj and we are still recovering from it. May be our civil war would have given us better chance to fight for society or may be would have taken us more back then we are today. You cannot deny that due to slavery, we had a halt in our economy and growth for two hundred years. Whereas in Gupta, maurya, Mughal yes we were being rules but we were still progressive. Where as with British rule, a developed nation is now under developed nation. We are atleast behind 100 yrs then we could have been. Still our major concerns of conflict in caste & religion is there.
Yes as we study, our views change and may be our studies could have impact the little minds with caste system, may be it would have become worst..who knows. but to say that it improved due to slavery..i find it hard to justify it as a good impact on our society. The damage is so severe that we are still bleeding.
The social reform would have still come..may be by same reformers like Swami Vivekanad ji or Tilak ji.Instead of fighting, they would have struggled for social reforms . Not sure if you heard how Britishers rules in small zamidarri system by your grandfather's brother. My father used to narrate stories that they di d in our village. Unfortunately my great grandfather was a part of it too. Every 15the August he used to cry happily remebering all they did jointly and how everone was distributing free mithai etc and dancing on streets that day.

Not everyone stil treats their servants with equal right. Glad that you do. In most houses, They even have seperate utensils to eat or drink. We still need People like Swami ji who can brain wash us all and stop this Quota and bring all human being to equal status. 😃

👏 👏 very well said swar_raj.

Yes Aspire, that is what I said too. THat Mughal empire's king was weak. If we were still under a king like Akbar..even Aurungzed, there was no way that britishers could invade us like they did. Also all small kingdoms were getting unitied to support the king and if everyone had reached there as planned, britishers would have been defeated. But before this could happen, the king gave his crown and that demoralized our other kings. THus britishers gained power. i donot think the language gain is a big achievement to us. In us   a person from Portugal, France or Spain doenot know English and have more impact on US economy. Chienese may not speak English but is holding a major trade of US. It is hard work, dedication, your policies that make you survive..not the language only. Moreover to migrate a country..u need to know the country's language. Imagine going to Germany...you have to know their language. Even english doesnot do much help.
An I am not against English languge or not saying that our schools have improved...what I am saying, that with due course of time, we would have achieved more then what we got from British Raj. Sanskrit was the main language that was taken away from india in the past. and is the mother of numerous languages of World..ever thought   why????????? because since Aryans invaded, India was progressing in all fields and all material was in sanskrit. So to spread that knowledge, people took it and converted them in their language.

What ever we achieved from British Raj is so less that is not even worth mentioning. I strongly believe that we could have done much better in all fields with out them.

Originally posted by: Aspire

Coming back to the British..how they helped us. Well, they obviously by spreading the language of English.

 

And now the entire world must adopt English as their sole language. 😆

 Remeber, every part of India spoke a different language before them. The fact that we could later all speak in English gave us a common ground to unite and to share.

 

How many Indians could speak English in 1947, at the time of independence? Even now Indian languages are still alive and will be, English can and will never be an Indian language. It will always be the language of Elites.

 Anyways, back to English. You know how many Chinese that come to US suffer because they don't know English? Atleast, the Indians that come don't have to face that much problem. My grandpa, who only studied until 3rd grade knows much better English than some of the Chinese immigrants that I have met here in US. I believe in preserving our Indian languages too but I'm just saying that our knowledge of English language has become one of our strengths today in everything from travelling to places to gettting a job.

 

Where is China without English and where are we proud speakers of English?😆

Edited by SolidSnake - 17 years ago

Originally posted by: SolidSnake

 

And now the entire world must adopt English as their sole language. 😆

 

How many Indians could speak English in 1947, at the time of independence? Even now Indian languages are still alive and will be, English can and will never be an Indian language. It will always be the language of Elites.

 

Where is China without English and where are we proud speakers of English?😆

😆👏

Thanks Somya and SS

😆 this reminds me of my daughter's friend's grandparents who came to visit US....they said they cannot find single momento in US to take back home with them 'coz even small statue of liberty momento say "made in china" under it 😆

Swar-rajji, India might be self-sufficient before, but technically in all fields if we were so good then I doubt we would have faced so many attacks and suffered defeat.

During the Golden era under Hindu kings, India was flourishing. But what happened after that? People who lived under the Hindu kings( present west and south-western India) would not understand the people suffered under Muslim kings. There were very few Muslim rulers who were tolerant towards the Hindus. You know, before the British came King Shirajudullah of Bengal ordered to kill Hindus, who were killed and drowned in the river Palassey of Murshidabad district. I still have doubt how India would have got rid of the Muslim leaders. Today we mourn for Pakistan and Bangladesh, I wonder if India would have existed like it is today.

We might be bleeding but healing too. And it's just 60 years of independence, we have a lot more good things yet to come.

Yes, i agree that there were problems, but to say hinduism could have been wiped off..is wrong. Although he was thrown away more for incident Known as Black hole of Calcutta(Althogh it is debate, if it really happened) . Battle of Plassey was the turning point too for britishers, they knew they could bribe our people and make false promises and gain victory. Siraj if was not cruel , may not have been the victim, he had enormous wealth and gained power at young age. And major of his genreal were Hindus, personally he was not against them as he had a large number of them in hi army. may be I am wrong here but the reason was realted to Jafar..his cousin, and Jagat a marwari merchant who ran away from Siraj,and went to Britishers . (But I am not sure about this..you might know more) Inspite of larger army , he was defeated and merely the reason was rain and bribes by britishers to his soldiers. ofcourse, britishers were smarter and Mugals were overconfident due to their dynasty . Mogal emperors were losing grips after Aurunzeb..who initially started religious fights..build mosque attached to every major temple.Still a normal Hindu muslim conflict was not there to this extend till Britishers started facing problems by freedom fighters.
We still have those incident where trains are burned and people are burnt (Gujrat) and many more. But it is not stopping us to build India. In tha same way India was not loosing its wealth. Where as by british Raj we lost everthing
Edited by Swar_Raj - 17 years ago