If you believe in God, refute this! - Page 72

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Freethinker112 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Don't you think that you could be missing a huge piece of the puzzle if you ignore free will. If free will exists, then there exists a consciousness not determined by neurotransmitters or other forms of social, physiological conditioning. That opens us up to a soul like concept. The parameters are yet to be determined. But these parameters are a vital piece to the God? Puzzle we are looking to solve.

Personally I tend to prefer compatibilism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DeterminismXFreeWill.jpg


But how much comes under free will? That is the question. We have free will in the sense that we have many options to do. But there is a limit to what we can do. If I want to fly, I can't. Does that negate free will? I don't think so. For me, free will means you can do anything that can be done. The freedom of making choice. Which are limited.

As to conditioning and environmental factors, they may play a role in what you choose. But that does not mean that you didn't have alternative choices, does it? That is an interesting though too. If by analyzing a person, we can predict what option he will choose out of many, were the other choices futile?

I believe in free will but the limited sense that I said. It's just making a choice.
Freethinker112 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Beyond_the_Veil

Even God won't be able to refute this. He will just laugh it off and say 'Why did you ppl turn me into such a contradictory joker?'. *yawn*


Actually if he came there would be no need or speculations. 😆
Summer3 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Freethinker112


Actually if he came there would be no need or speculations. 😆

Where can God go ?
He is the easiest person to find since He is everywhere. Because he does not seem to respond does not mean He is not around .😆 He watches alright and so quietly too.
Freethinker112 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

My reasons behind doing so were pretty obvious ..You went poof for like a couple of days ..As if the GOD abducted ya abruptly for being agnostic ..😆 ..So to keep both the debate and my interest in it going I was left with no choice but to present the same set of questions ( That you didn't answer ) to other erudite here for evaluation by them. ..But anyways I ll remember this request by you and enact your suggestion ..the next time you go missing .. 😆


Well, as you are the blackmagic expert, I would rely on you to come and find me in case somet...*poof*

😉 😆


Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

Well I guess I presented ya with my observations ..and only then built my hypothesis around that ..I gave ya several examples which defo weren't shonky, ..So I bet they needed recognition ..and that's the very reason the others here chose not to consider them trivial and Pignore 😆


None of your examples were testable nor an improvement on current models. You just made lots of claims but failed to explain them.


Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

<<<<< So you admit that the numbers are conceptual ..There is nothing real about them ..And you still believe in em .and make the math your religion .. 0 is something that doesn't exist ..1 and 2 DO Cause you can count objects as 1, 2 and so on...My question was about the wide use of ZERO as the number to fumble around the equations to reach a conclusion that dismisses the existence of something that you believe doesn't exist .. The theory though would die of quickly if proper consideration is given ..the ZERO it is ..that the math resorts to LIVING / EXISTING ...Someone rightly said ..' Those who live by the sword ..Die by the sword' ( Must be some drunken prolific philosopher ..Who looked at everything candidly 😆 ) So ZERO is the killer here ..that invalidates your math ...


Now this is a huge contradiction by you ...In your statement before you said ..ZERO doesn't exist ...And now you are like ...0D = ZERO D does 😆 ..Make up your mind mate ..Whats your exact stance .Decide that first ..😆 Again ..Its pretty evident that you didn't rad my argument carefully .. I said ...There is a SELF within YOURSELF. ..that exists in a dimensionless state .Not that your body exists in that way ...The SOUL it is ...The Energy ..which has no dimensions ...


You need to understand better. I said number on their own doesn't mean anything physical. They do when combined with objects.

0D is what we refer to as points. They are there. And how can something dimensionless exist in ME which is physical? How does dimensionless interact with dimensions at all?

And you talk of energy as a thing that exists. Energy is a property. Something has energy.


Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

<<<<<Ahahahaha 😆 ..Seriously I didn't get ya there ..And I bet even you didn't get ya either ... A SHOCK a Reflex Action ? That lasts for 15 minutes ? REFLEX Actions are instant ..So the body moving for 15 minutes was defo not a reflex action ...By the way ..Spinal Cord is a carrier of signals .It doesn't generate none.. When the Brain disconnects the spinal cord becomes as worthless as a long electric cable in in a distant MASAI Village where there is no electricity ...😆 The cable that can only be used by the children there for Rope Skipping fun ... 😆


Body doesn't stay alive for 15 minutes after decapitation. Head remains conscious for some seconds. And spinal cord can generate signal. That is what happens in reflex action. You don't think, you just do it.


Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

^^^ The same holds true for the GOD and the SOUL ..Since we don't exactly known what they are ...But we know that they exist ..Like our thoughts we can't attach any dimensions to none ..Point proven again ... 😊


Nope, no point proven. We know thought exists because we can think. But there is no way to observe God or soul. Just experience means you know it whether you can explain it or not. But in this case there is neither observation nor explanation. So, no God and no soul.


Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

^^^ ..Hahaha .. ..Point objects don't exist ..The electrons around which the whole Semiconductor concept revolves ..inevitable component of every single circuit...Even that doesn't exist ? ..So science is built around the things that don't exist ...😆 ..If you can accept that .You must accept other sciences too ( The spirituality ) which are based upon things that are not apparent to one's eyes ..One can't be partial like that towards science ...NO Hell ..😆


Electrons don't have a fixed position where you can say that they exist. They have a probability cloud, and the most you can say that some place has the highest probability of the electron being found there.
Freethinker112 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Summer3

Where can God go ?

He is the easiest person to find since He is everywhere. Because he does not seem to respond does not mean He is not around .😆 He watches alright and so quietly too.


Looks like he is doing a bad job of watching quietly. You people seem to know so much about him. 😆
Summer3 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Freethinker112


Looks like he is doing a bad job of watching quietly. You people seem to know so much about him. 😆

Ah He can't hide from us. I think God is also scared of us as we love to make unreasonable demands, esp the ladies who may nag him forever. This explains why he does not want to avail himself so easily. But trust me, he is always around... nowhere to hide due to his omnipresense.😆
Freethinker112 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Summer3

Ah He can't hide from us. I think God is also scared of us as we love to make unreasonable demands, esp the ladies who may nag him forever. This explains why he does not want to avail himself so easily. But trust me, he is always around... nowhere to hide due to his omnipresense.😆


More speculations Summer ji, more speculations. 😆

BTW, on a serious note, what makes you believe in this concept and what makes you sure of it?
Summer3 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: Freethinker112


More speculations Summer ji, more speculations. 😆

BTW, on a serious note, what makes you believe in this concept and what makes you sure of it?

Freethinker Bhai,
This is based more on experiences in life and after reading some books. The mighty power can express himself in many ways, through another human being or animal or whatever is necessary, or even through dreams. The same God is in us as well as in everyone else. Humans are a mixture of God and the ego and sometimes they take turns to express; without some ego it is hard to keep ourselves here on earth.
"Autobiography of a Yogi" is a very simple and easy to understand book.
God is practical and cares more about proper behaviour rather than prayers etc which are only means to an end; of course prayers etc does help the calm the mind and increase devotion.
Swami Vivekenanda's works are also very inspiring.
There is no dearth of sages and saints in India fortunately.
Vintage.Wine thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
return_to_hades thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: K.Universe.



Unless I am way off, I think it's an overrated concept that basically describes how we make decisions. At the most, freewill would figure as a sub-topic under intelligence which encompasses among other things, problem solving. I never understood why the ability to make decisions is singled out as freewill. Do we have intelligence? Damn straight, we do. Do we have free-will? Why is that even a question? I believe the set of choices available to us is finite and countable (restricted by physical laws) and we are capable of picking one choice from this set by way of problem solving.



IMHO you would be missing something huge. I'm no scientist or philosopher, but I think understanding the existence and nature of both determinism and free will in the universe is fundamental in the search for answers. One part of the puzzle is physical, what we see in the physical universe: matter, energy etc. The other part is the big unknown – the nature of the sentient mind (not just human). I find it essential to figure out if free will exists and to what degree. Behavior is not always rational or intelligent. That is why I am inclined to believe intelligence is a subset of free will, not vice versa. And free will, independent of any physical control of neurotransmitters etc can dramatically alter what the nature of truth is.


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