If you believe in God, refute this! - Page 105

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum

yeah sure, We start with nothing. Suddenly the nothing decides to transform into things that cancel each other. The big bang thing you know. Things like that happen randomly, dont they?😛 😆

just distilling the essence of all the lepto-klepto discourses we've gotten ourselves into.😆

What's on your mind Birdie? You would like to substitute that word "randomly" with another word of your choice, real soon. Don't you? You can't wait to do that substitution, can you? So, out with it! If not randomly, then how?

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

What's on your mind Birdie? You would like to substitute that word "randomly" with another word of your choice, real soon. Don't you? You can't wait to do that substitution, can you? So, out with it! If not randomly, then how?

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

Vintu,

Not all leptons are electrons just as not all mammals are humans. Please appreciate the distinction.

Leptons forming at 10^-35 s is not the same as electrons forming at 10^-4 s !!!

There are flavors in Leptons.

The heavier muons and taus decay into electrons. Muons and taus are also leptons.

I hope no more arguments on this.

As for how they came up with the timeline - you sound incredulous. If that's a sincere question, it would require sincere research. If that's questioning the whole process and suggesting as though the ones who came up with the timeline pulled those numbers out of their behind, there could be no more discussion after that.

QUOTE=Freethinker112]

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

@ Bold: .Exactly my point 😛 ....Now see the Big Bang timeline that K has posted and look at what happened at T + 10 ^-43 s ..and then T + 10 ^ -12 s and see for yourself why I said what I had said..😆 ...Leptons were the early particles ...The only question now is how they came into being ...The asymmetry between matter
and Anti matter ?

Alright K ...😆

My reply was pretty apt for Free's post ..if you had a look at what he had said ...Hardrons weren't produced before Leptons ..

Now to your illustration ...Other Lepton particles ( Excluding Electrons ) were created ...
http://www.uni.edu/morgans/astro/course/Notes/section3/new15.html

^^^^ See this link ...
. One thing that can happen is that the building blocks for atoms can be produced - things like quarks and leptons will be produced (quarks make up protons and neutrons; leptons make up electrons and neutrinos). <<<<< Here the author doesn't feel the need to mention that Electrons were not the part of the early Leptons ..

On further reading ..I wondered if All Electrons are equally light ? Are they all of same mass ? What happened at T + 10 ^ -4 s ? ..According to the article following phenomena musta occured...

Light Particle Era, time=10^-4 s, Temperature=10¹² K.

As the Universe cools down, the radiation's energy decreases and the only particles that can be made are those with low mass - so that's what this era is about. The light weight electrons are being produced here. <<<<< Light weight electrons ? Of Lower mass ? Does this mean that earlier Leptons had electrons of higher mass ? That were independent of Muons and taus ( Freed of course ) and those that are created after cooling were of lighter mass ? ...The question thus becomes do all electrons are of equal mass ? or some are heavier than the others ?

OR
The Electrons did exist but they weren't released due to high temperature?

^^^^ This needs to be known...

To summaries everything ..my reply to Free was Apt cause he said Leptons didn't exist prior to Hadrons which is WRONG ...

And then the next query ..about the mass of every electron ...I think it must differ ...

Also it looks like everything existed in a compressed form during the Grand Unified Theory ..All forces ..and if the radiation that had enormous energy was of astoundingly high ( May be infinite ) magnitude ...and what happened was opposite of E = MC square ..( Sequence of creation reversed the reversing the yield ) the energy won't be that high without participation of electrons ...

The theory itself is evolving all the time ..and may be it ll keep evolving until some Anti Particle activity is engendered again .after billions of years and those particles would then negate all matter ...= Back to the square one ...😆

@ Your Bold: The process has been in question many times ...If that wasn't true Brane Cosmology wouldn't have existed...So the reference to where those stupefyingly lower time frames came from? Is there any data detailing that? Cause if we don't have an answer for that ..there is no point questioning the other things too ..And all we ll be left would be to accept what they say and as they say ... ..We can't know anything unless we have questions to ask ..


Vintu ...😛

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum

again i think that we'll get to a certain point playing mechano mechano trying to explain how things works, then we get stuck for a 100 years. After that we find a glitch and we are sent scampering for new theories and ideas...

now whether we believe in God or not, however rational or irrational we might find those beliefs to be, question is can we ever expect to go beyond things we can only measure using our classical world-view? Take GR. At the end of the day, we still evaluate results using "classical" devices. Add to that a scientific philosophy that is always looking for cause and effect. Can science deal with something that is non-causal? If not, then fine, we cannot prove existence. But then why come at it from an arrogant viewpoint that says it isn't so, and it isn't so because we cant prove things scientifically? I find that mentality as rigid as all the religious dogmas that we have been decrying. And no, i dont know what else we can do about it. The scientific method is still the best we have. But it is far from satisfactory in even beginning to get at what else there might be. Can it prove definitely that there isnt something else? I dont think so.

Yes, we will continue relying on classical devices and evaluating the results obtained using those classical devices because we are stuck in the classical scale. Nothing we can do about it (I think)

However, that wouldn't prevent us from thinking non-classically, however counter-intuitive it is to think like that. For instance, it didn't prevent Bohm to think quantum-mechanically. It even didn't prevent Einstein to think about space as something that bends, twists and curves...so radically different than what Newton thought. What I am saying is, thinking is not limited to classical scale (I think!)

As for the question "can we prove that there isn't something else", unfortunately the burden of proof prevents us to place bets on the wrong side. At that point, it is up to the individual to formulate his/her theories to fill the gaps. Either that or wait for the slow-as-molasses science to play catch up. But are there gaps in knowledge? Absolutely. Are there unknowns? Absolutely.

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

Here the author doesn't feel the need to mention that Electrons were not the part of the early Leptons ..

The author didn't feel the need to do so because electrons are lighter particles and some of the other leptons such as Muons and Taus are heavier particles and the heavier particle era began before the lighter particle era.

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

On further reading ..I wondered if All Electrons are equally light ?

The question thus becomes do all electrons are of equal mass ? or some are heavier than the others ?
OR
The Electrons did exist but they weren't released due to high temperature?

^^^^ This needs to be known...

All electrons have identical properties (mass, charge etc)

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

To summaries everything ..my reply to Free was Apt cause he said Leptons didn't exist prior to Hadrons which is WRONG ...

The hadron epoch preceded the Lepton epoch. It was not simultaneous. Also, Leptons didn't come before Hadrons.

In any case, I lost the context already. What are we trying to establish here? If electrons came before hadrons (they didn't but assuming for a second that they did) so what?

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

And then the next query ..about the mass of every electron ...I think it must differ ...

Mass is the same for all electrons as are other properties of electrons.

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

@ Your Bold: The process has been in question many times ...If that wasn't true Brane Cosmology wouldn't have existed...So the reference to where those stupefyingly lower time frames came from? Is there any data detailing that? Cause if we don't have an answer for that ..there is no point questioning the other things too ..And all we ll be left would be to accept what they say and as they say ...Ouch ..We can't know anything unless we have questions to ask ..

Questioning is good. In fact, I am all about questions. But in your statements leading up to this you said stuff like "I don't think anyone can be dead on predicting the events that took place during such a scant time ...unless they are dead drunk + smoking pot + possessed by some cranky ghost all at the same time .." and "We can only clap at this extravaganza of comedy and all clayton's facts that they wrote .. LOL Are they kidding us poor souls or what ? " That is not questioning, that is ridiculing.

Question I would like to pose, and this is open to all but I guess I am specifically directing this at Freethinker, Birdie and Vintu:

What kind of a random process creates gazillions of electrons with identical properties?!

Imagine trillions and trillions of particle ALL of equal mass, equal charge and same spin / magnetic dipole moment.

It's not about creation. I am not getting into that. The question is about being identical, randomly.

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

Question I would like to pose, and this is open to all but I guess I am specifically directing this at Freethinker, Birdie and Vintu:

What kind of a random process creates gazillions of electrons with identical properties?!

Imagine trillions and trillions of particle ALL of equal mass, equal charge and same spin / magnetic dipole moment.

It's not about creation. I am not getting into that. The question is about being identical, randomly.

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum

spin can be positive or negative, so they are not all the same. But yes, there's a lot of them that are seemingly identical however we look at it.

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

The author didn't feel the need to do so because electrons are lighter particles and some of the other leptons such as Muons and Taus are heavier particles and the heavier particle era began before the lighter particle era.

Hahha ...No K 😆 ..Ideal article needs to be impeccable and nothing should be left to the readers assumptions ..The author makes a mention of LEPTONS forming at the end of GUT ..10 ^ -35 s and says QUARKS and LEPTONS form ...without making a much needed mention that Electrons weren't the part of those Leptons making the article less exquisite...and leading to ambiguity ..





All electrons have identical properties (mass, charge etc)

^^^^^ Bonzer .I ll get to this at the end of my post ...



The hadron epoch preceded the Lepton epoch. It was not simultaneous. Also, Leptons didn't come before Hadrons.

In any case, I lost the context already. What are we trying to establish here? If electrons came before hadrons (they didn't but assuming for a second that they did) so what?

The Context: We ain't trying to establish anything here ..We are trying to understand what came first according to the current knowledge ..the process that is ...Cause may be later after billions of year an Anti Process would destroy everything in the REVERSE (CCHRONOLOGICAL ) ORDER .. This might have happened many time ( And even simultaneously ) ...

Now to Hadrons and Leptons ( Even without Electrons ) ...

-10-35 s	End of GUT	1027 K	3 forces in nature, gravity, strong nuclear, electroweak Quarks and leptons form (along with their anti-particles)
10-35 to 10-33 s	Inflation	1027 K	Size of the Universe drastically increased, by factor of 1030to 1040
10-12 s	End of unified forces	1015 K	4 forces in nature, protons and neutrons start forming from quarks
10-7 s	Heavy Particle	1014 K	proton, neutron production in full swing
10-4 s	Light particle	1012 K	electrons and positrons form

^^^^^^ See what according to the author happened at 10 ^ -35 s and then 10 ^ -12 s ...
We are discussing this article / table here as you posted that with the link and it seems pretty ambiguous to say the least. Also I raised the question of High Temperature / Energy situation at that time with a reason ...Cause Quantum Chromodynamics doesn't favor the existence of Hadrons at such insanely high Tempreture / Energy levels ...
I won't trust the data contained in a article blindfolded..I would like to verify it's accuracy tallying that with the known knowledge and rules...



Mass is the same for all electrons as are other properties of electrons.




Questioning is good. In fact, I am all about questions. But in your statements leading up to this you said stuff like "I don't think anyone can be dead on predicting the events that took place during such a scant time ...unless they are dead drunk + smoking pot + possessed by some cranky ghost all at the same time .." and "We can only clap at this extravaganza of comedy and all clayton's facts that they wrote .. LOL Are they kidding us poor souls or what ? " That is not questioning, that is ridiculing.

^^^^ Well ....The name BIG BANG it self was the Mockery of the theory ..But if you read what I wrote carefully all my statements were pertaining strictly to the article you had posted ...Not to the theory itself ... The author is also a Student / Follower of the theory and defo not the one who Created that ...So the author's of the original theory or their other followers should not feel offended ...

Now to your All electrons have identical properties (mass, charge etc) <<<< Statement ...Exactly my point ...Now the reverse psychology is working fine ...People don't trust the words of the Original Philosopher ..ie : Lord Krishna ...but trust Aleksander Fireidmann and George Le Maitre and many others pretty quickly ...

All Electrons / The basic building blocks are same everywhere ..With same properties ..So we all and all the material in the UNIVERSE came from the SAME source of energy ....Free did ask ..if his computer has a soul ..When I was saying that everything is a part of the same basic energy ...That's what has been said thousands of years ago by Krishna ..We all are the creation of the SAME ENERGY ...and one day as the clock reverses << figurative ..we will become ONE ENERGY again ... <<<<< Now whats so wrong with what he said? Except for the terminology differed ...The science is only proving the verses TRUE ...

Everything was one ...and Everything would become one ..<< The state of ultimate collective Moksha ...

Also if everything is to be taken literally ..Free said let the GOD make keep this thread at the TOP always ...While Geeta clearly states ' Karmanye vadhikarasthe ..Ma faleshu kadachana ' <<<< Karma is a MUST ..and Karma can yield neutral results too ..😆

Phew !

Vintu ...😛

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

If I were the mod I would ask - "why do you people need an extension? It's not like any of you are going to get any wiser in the next 50 pages (or in the next 50 years for that matter :) "

... assuming you do get wiser does it change anything ?