RAMAYAN JOURNEY OF THE SOUL! - Page 7

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sherlock thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#61
@Krishni51:

you surely agree that we are in complicated territory here. Ved's 'Karm siddhant' & 'deh-tatva vigyan' are not simple, and what's more, here we have combined them together and trying to dissect them at one go.πŸ˜† Let's simplify all this as much as possible. Also, pay no attention to whether the example is in good or bad taste, just focus on what is being discussed. As it is, when it comes to giving cheesy examples to explain things, nobody can beat me.πŸ˜†

Who is doing karm, how to decide, and how thoughts arising in 'mann' affect both physical & astral bodies? Let us say Mr. & Mrs. X are in their house. Mrs. X is cooking food, and Mr. X is sitting idle, staring blankly & doing absolutely nothing. If an observer is to erroneously equate 'karm' with 'physical work' he'll say Mrs X is doing work & Mr X is not. However, reality can be opposite. If Mrs X is preparing food like an automaton, her mind blank, just finishing off a routine work, she may not doing any recordable karm, though suffering physical exertion nonetheless. If however she is thinking while cooking that let me prepare food in such a way that it turns out tasty as well as healthy for all who eat it, it may be recorded that she did a satvic karm, because she did something for the happiness of others. (I am saying 'may' all the time because we cannot decide how a 'karm' will be classified.)

Similarly, mr X, though sitting idle, may be thinking that the new girl who has joined his office yesterday is just his type, and if he makes all the right moves, he can have a clandestine affair with her. If this is what he is thinking, he is getting tamsic thoughts recorded on his mann all the time he appeared doing nothing. Now these thoughts of Mr X will work at various levels. He'll make his physical body act in ways which his mann believe will get him that girl. These thoughts will make his mann more tamsic, & will increase the 'darkness' in his 'sanchit karm.' That is why people say, 'watch your thoughts, because sooner or later, you'll become like your thoughts.'

How karta gets trapped at multiple levels? Taking this example further, let us say Mr. X actually succeeded in his wish, i.e. he got the girl & cheated on his wife. This one 'act' can get mr. X in trouble, twice! When he cheated, even though nobody except him & that girl knew about the incident at that time, he broke all those promises he made to his wife at the time of their marriage, so regardless of his wife being clueless about his shenanigans, he has perpetrated a gross injustice upon his wife, and this again gets recorded as a grave tamsic karm against Mr X's name. Further, Mr X's luck failed him and sometime later, Mrs X came to know all about Mr X's 'official activities.' This knowledge causes her great mental trauma & sorrow, and as the 'karta' of the original act whose knowledge is now causing Mrs X so much pain, ANOTHER 'tamsic karm' gets noted against Mr. X's name! so what this example tells us is, Mr X did one act, but according to 'karm siddhant' he will suffer tamsic results sometime in future for TWO tamsic karms, one, he broke his promises to his wife, and two, he caused his wife to suffer trauma.

What is meant by 'equivalent result in opposite direction?' let's leave mr. X in peace, and return to the example of Bali which we have discussed once in this thread. Bali clobbered his younger brother Sugriva and was intent on killing him, but Sugriva luckily escaped to Rishimuk mountain, which was a no-go zone for Bali because of a curse. But then, Bali went to another level, caught Sugriva's wife and started treating her like his own! Now someone may say that if the mayic rule says every karm will produce an equivalent result of similar nature which 'karta' will have to endure, bali's tamsic karm should have resulted in someone else running away with bali's original wife!! But the thing is, bali through his tamsic actions caused pain to sugriva & his wife. The result of this is, bali will be made to suffer 'equivalent pain' in future, how to administer that pain is impossible to tell in advance. In this case, Shri Ram decided that what bali has done necessitates him getting death penalty, and a person who treats his younger brother's wife in this way may be put to death in any manner.

Finally, since there is no fixed time-period for the completion of a particular 'karm-phal cycle' a karm may bear fruit within moments or after thousands of year. That's why we see people all around us, when faced with any difficulty or tragedy, start abusing & cursing God, calling him biased and so on, or turn atheists, because they have no idea that these difficulties can be results of their OWN actions in a past they no longer remember. Even if someone is to suggest anything like that to them, they'll say all this is nonsense & they don't believe in these vedic concepts.


dharma22 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#62
this post is really very gud
thanks krishni
knowledgeable post
dharma22 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#63
Stalwart. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#64
@Chahat...Kudos to Member Sherlock!
God!there are wonderful posts with detailed explaination...I have to read them in peace!
Edited by Krishni51 - 11 years ago
dharma22 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#65

Originally posted by: Krishni51

@Chahat...Kudos to Member Sherlock!
God!there are wonderful posts with detailed explaination...I have to read them in peace!

thanks for both
both of u are best
Stalwart. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#66
Edited by Krishni51 - 11 years ago
Stalwart. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#67

Originally posted by: sherlock

@Krishni51:

you surely agree that we are in complicated territory here. Ved's 'Karm siddhant' & 'deh-tatva vigyan' are not simple, and what's more, here we have combined them together and trying to dissect them at one go.πŸ˜† Let's simplify all this as much as possible. Also, pay no attention to whether the example is in good or bad taste, just focus on what is being discussed. As it is, when it comes to giving cheesy examples to explain things, nobody can beat me.πŸ˜†...πŸ‘πŸΌ

Who is doing karm, how to decide, and how thoughts arising in 'mann' affect both physical & astral bodies? Let us say Mr. & Mrs. X are in their house. Mrs. X is cooking food, and Mr. X is sitting idle, staring blankly & doing absolutely nothing. If an observer is to erroneously equate 'karm' with 'physical work' he'll say Mrs X is doing work & Mr X is not. However, reality can be opposite. If Mrs X is preparing food like an automaton, her mind blank, just finishing off a routine work, she may not doing any recordable karm, though suffering physical exertion nonetheless. If however she is thinking while cooking that let me prepare food in such a way that it turns out tasty as well as healthy for all who eat it, it may be recorded that she did a satvic karm, because she did something for the happiness of others. (I am saying 'may' all the time because we cannot decide how a 'karm' will be classified.)...

Similarly, mr X, though sitting idle, may be thinking that the new girl who has joined his office yesterday is just his type, and if he makes all the right moves, he can have a clandestine affair with her. If this is what he is thinking, he is getting tamsic thoughts recorded on his mann all the time he appeared doing nothing. Now these thoughts of Mr X will work at various levels. He'll make his physical body act in ways which his mann believe will get him that girl. These thoughts will make his mann more tamsic, & will increase the 'darkness' in his 'sanchit karm.' That is why people say, 'watch your thoughts, because sooner or later, you'll become like your thoughts.'...And the best way to obstruct unnecessary thoughts is focussing your mind at a fixed point esp.on the Anant Ananda.Right!😊

How karta gets trapped at multiple levels? Taking this example further, let us say Mr. X actually succeeded in his wish, i.e. he got the girl & cheated on his wife. This one 'act' can get mr. X in trouble, twice! When he cheated, even though nobody except him & that girl knew about the incident at that time, he broke all those promises he made to his wife at the time of their marriage, so regardless of his wife being clueless about his shenanigans, he has perpetrated a gross injustice upon his wife, and this again gets recorded as a grave tamsic karm against Mr X's name. Further, Mr X's luck failed him and sometime later, Mrs X came to know all about Mr X's 'official activities.' This knowledge causes her great mental trauma & sorrow, and as the 'karta' of the original act whose knowledge is now causing Mrs X so much pain, ANOTHER 'tamsic karm' gets noted against Mr. X's name! so what this example tells us is, Mr X did one act, but according to 'karm siddhant' he will suffer tamsic results sometime in future for TWO tamsic karms, one, he broke his promises to his wife, and two, he caused his wife to suffer trauma...Ok so our accounts will get updated automatically every time we do something...Now tell me one thing what if Mr.X did someTamsic Karm but realised his mistake and surrendered to Absolute Truth whole heartedly before he faces the result of his Tamsic Karm will he attain salvation???πŸ˜•Will his account be cleared wihout any suffering coz he attained a state where Pap and Punya get precluded???πŸ˜•

What is meant by 'equivalent result in opposite direction?'...This is my favourite lineπŸ˜ƒ let's leave mr. X in peace, and return to the example of Bali which we have discussed once in this thread. Bali clobbered his younger brother Sugriva and was intent on killing him, but Sugriva luckily escaped to Rishimuk mountain, which was a no-go zone for Bali because of a curse. But then, Bali went to another level, caught Sugriva's wife and started treating her like his own! Now someone may say that if the mayic rule says every karm will produce an equivalent result of similar nature which 'karta' will have to endure, bali's tamsic karm should have resulted in someone else running away with bali's original wife!! But the thing is, bali through his tamsic actions caused pain to sugriva & his wife. The result of this is, bali will be made to suffer 'equivalent pain' in future, how to administer that pain is impossible to tell in advance. In this case, Shri Ram decided that what bali has done necessitates him getting death penalty, and a person who treats his younger brother's wife in this way may be put to death in any manner...I have some Q. here...

1)Didn't Sugriv's wife protest when Vali was doing this?If she was living happily enjoying with Vali forgetting her real husband wasn't this also a mistake from her side?

2)If she loved her Husband she might have atleast tried to come out of this situation or pleaded someone to help!Was anything mentioned like this?πŸ˜•
3)How come Sugriva left his wifey dearest if she is so at that place all alone and think of his safety only?πŸ€”
4)Hanuman knew all this before Shri Ram had arrived at their place so if really some adharma was going why to wait for some one to come and save?I mean even Hanuman was mighty!Why didn't he bang Vali and do justice for Sugriva?
And I love Shri Ram's decisionπŸ˜ƒ coz how can we trouble Vali's original wife for the sin Vali committed?I don't know about her character but this decision was good!
BTW what happened to her after Vali's death???

Finally, since there is no fixed time-period for the completion of a particular 'karm-phal cycle' a karm may bear fruit within moments or after thousands of year. That's why we see people all around us, when faced with any difficulty or tragedy, start abusing & cursing God, calling him biased and so on, or turn atheists, because they have no idea that these difficulties can be results of their OWN actions in a past they no longer remember. Even if someone is to suggest anything like that to them, they'll say all this is nonsense & they don't believe in these vedic concepts... Thank You for this explaination with some good examples😊


Word Count: 1

sherlock thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#68

Originally posted by: Krishni51

...DO THE MANN,BUDDHI AND ALL OTHER KOSHAS(Astral Body) REMAIN THOUGH THE PHYSICAL BODY GETS SEPERATED FROM JIVATMA ???πŸ˜•


Of course, both our 'sookshm' & 'kaaran sharir' remain with us after we leave a particular physical body, and we are able to perceive things and experience things in that period of leaving one physical body & waiting to get another, through our astral body. We cannot 'do' anything in this intervening period, because to 'do', we need a physical body.

Shri hanuman is NOT a jeev! He is the expressed form of ShivParvati's LOVE for SitaRam & exists for only one purpose, to serve the lotus feet of SitaRam & in the process clearly tell all 'jeevs' what is meant to be a 'sevak' & a 'bhakt.' Keep in mind the reality of relation between SitaRam & ShivParvati...They are Anant Ananda Right!πŸ˜ƒ

Right.πŸ˜ƒ

So again, he has no physical or astral or any body in the sense we understand 'bodies' ...Interesting!Can you if itsn't troubling put this in elaborate.Love to know more about this😊

We already know that Bhagvan & Bhagvati are 'anant anand'. If I've to somehow describe the 'physical appearance' of SitaRam, all I can say is that I am seeing 'anant anand' as two 'bodies.' In other words, if someone ask you, "how does infinite bliss look?" answer is, "look at Sita or Ram." Their 'bodies' are made up of nothing, its just 'anand' personified. This is how Veds define ParBrahm. This is the final Vedic definition of Parmatma. Veds have been asked, define this personality whom you call ParBrahm, Parmatma, Shi Bhagvan. And all that Ved answered is, "He is 'anant anand.'"

SitaRam or RadhaKrishna, they have expressed on numerous occasions & continue to express their love & respect for ShivParvati. Many such instances are described in detail in Ramayan, Shrimad Bhagvat, and in various other texts. Sitaji's worship of Maa Parvati, Shri Ram worshiping his Lord & his mother, Lord Shiv & Maa Parvati at Rameshvaram (literally meaning Ram's Ishvar(God)), Shri Radha worshiping Maa Parvati in Braj, Shri Krishna telling Arjun to worship Lord Shiv, all these incidents are too well-known. Shri Ram on numerous occasion has called Lord Shiv as his Lord, & Maa Parvati as his mother. Lord Krishna, in fact, once called Lord Shiv his 'atma'!! I mean, 'parmatma's' 'atma'! 'soul' of 'supreme soul'! Think about it. Similarly, Shiv has again & again declared that Ram is his God, and so this beautiful, sanatan game goes on. But ShivParvati have actually given a definite personality to their love for SitaRam, and that personality is Shri Hanuman. This, describing Shri Hanuman & how his body is divine, requires a unique, never before applied definition. We'll have to say that Shri Hanuman is the personification of Parmatma's love for Parmatma!! And his 'body' is nothing but 'visible love' for SitaRam that ShivParvati have in their heart.

Word Count: 1

sherlock thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#69

Originally posted by: Krishni51

.And the best way to obstruct unnecessary thoughts is focussing your mind at a fixed point esp.on the Anant Ananda.Right!😊


Absolutely. One cure for a host of problems. 😊

...Ok so our accounts will get updated automatically every time we do something...Now tell me one thing what if Mr.X did someTamsic Karm but realised his mistake and surrendered to Absolute Truth whole heartedly before he faces the result of his Tamsic Karm will he attain salvation???

The moment a 'jeevatma' will do a COMPLETE ABOUT TURN to this mayic reality, and will take the refuge of Parmatma, i.e. attaines the final stage of Ved's 'bhakti marg' he reaches beyond maya. Why? Because he has reached his true place, the lotus-feet of mom, and that place is beyond maya. However, even after attaining the end result of bhakti, as long as a 'jeev' is in his physical body, (because attaining your final goal does not mean your current physical body will go away then & there) whatever experiences he was supposed to endure while in that physical body, HE'LL STILL HAVE TO ENDURE. Physical body will take it's own sweet time to turn old & go away, & then, once a God-realised jeev leaves his physical body, he doesn't wait for another, this time, alongwith his physical body, even his mayic 'shookshm' & 'karan sharir' will melt away, and he'll finally be back to his true home.


πŸ˜•Will his account be cleared wihout any suffering coz he attained a state where Pap and Punya get precluded???πŸ˜•

The moment you experience the true nature of your relation with mom & dad, you account gets DESTROYED. No account is left with you. however, as we have seen just now, since your mayic bodies still remain over you, as long as you are in your current physical body, whatever experience that body was supposed to beget, you'll still have to endure all that. leave that physical body, leave the other two also this time around, & then go back home.

Finally, HERE'S THE CATCH. If we take your question about Mr X skirting the 'phal' of his 'tamsic karm' by surrendering to God as saying that if a person realizes that he has already done more than enough tamsic karm, and now if he has to somehow avoid all those tamsic phal, he has to attain salvation, it doesn't work that way. The fear of punishment for our tamsic karm is rarely a good enough catalyst to turn someone into a 'bhakt'. A person may realize his mistakes and start praying to God for forgiveness, what's more, since mom is all-powerful & infinitely compassionate, she may even listen to the prayers & pleadings for forgiveness of that person, and while the 'karm-phal siddhant' will keep working, mom in her compassion can agree for lighter punishment. For example, you correct punishment for an act should have been your leg getting fractured, but you realized your mistake, felt bad about it and with a true heart asked for God's forgiveness. Because of unchanging mayic rules, you'll still have to bear the phal of your act, but since you're genuinely repenting, mom MAY settle for you suffering major cuts on your leg, instead of it getting fractured.

However, BEFORE even thinking of attaining any salvation, one has to become a bhakt, and that is a different thing ALTOGETHER. Just because a person is repenting for his mistakes, and praying non-stop to God, doesn't mean he's a bhakt. Leave salvation aside, it is the LAST STAGE of bhakti, to even BECOME a bhakt, one has to have infinite love for his mom & dad in his heart. Thus, the mere START of bhakti requires boundless love for SitaRam in one's heart, the fear of punishment giving rise to boundless love for God or USING bhakti as a means of avoiding punishment, IMPOSSIBLE. Fear of punishment for karms & love for divine can never be mixed. One CANNOT be worrying about the phal of karms & still claim to be a 'bhakt.' For a bhakt, whether Maa Sita takes him to Vaikunth with her, or throws him in the most torturous of hells, it doesn't matter. Because for him, EVERY decision of his mom is equally blissful for him!! Whether he is in heaven or hell makes no difference to him, because wherever his mom may send him, for him, he is always sitting in his mother's lap! This sort of love for Ram makes one a BHAKT, if trying to avoid 'tamsic phal' is the motivation, you'll most likely fail.


1)Didn't Sugriv's wife protest when Vali was doing this?If she was living happily enjoying with Vali forgetting her real husband wasn't this also a mistake from her side?

We have absolutely no basis to make even a wild conjecture that Sugriv's wife could have been staying with Bali voluntarily. Every account points to just one thing, bali kept her as his slave in his palace.


2)If she loved her Husband she might have atleast tried to come out of this situation or pleaded someone to help!Was anything mentioned like this?πŸ˜•

"Tried to come out of the situation!" Hmm, don't you remember just how dangerous and mighty this Bali was? I mean, there was NOT ONE mayic jeev in the entire creation who could even challenge Raavan. Even 'jeev' in supposedly extremely powerful & mighty physical bodies, such as 'devtas' of 'devlok' or even their king, the King of 'devtas', Indra, a jeev with an extremely powerful physical body capable of doing things with his physical body that humans consider these devtas & Indra as performing miracles, even these powerful 'jeev' used to run away at the mere mention of Raavan!! Such was Raavan's power. And yet, Bali DEFEATED raavan, that too, quite easily. Bali was the ONLY jeev in entire creation who defeated Raavan in combat. This gives us an idea of how powerful & how dangerous this Bali was. I don't think Sugriva's wife could have done much against Bali.


3)How come Sugriva left his wifey dearest if she is so at that place all alone and think of his safety only?πŸ€”

It was not like that Bali after beating up Sugriva & breaking a few of his bones, then asked his younger brother to go home, take his wife and belongings with him, and go to Rishmukh mountain. Bali was intent of killing Sugriva then & there, so Sugriva kept running & running till he reached Rishmukh mountain, otherwise bali would have certainly finished him off. So how Sugriva could have gone back to Kishkindha palace to take his wife with him? In fact, so terrified was Sugriva of bali's power, that he was not certain that Ram could kill Bali, and actually asked ram to give a test by doing some impossible feats, so that he could be certain that Ram can kill bali.


4)Hanuman knew all this before Shri Ram had arrived at their place so if really some adharma was going why to wait for some one to come and save?I mean even Hanuman was mighty!Why didn't he bang Vali and do justice for Sugriva?

Hanuman was a hyper-active kid in his childhood, & had made life extremely difficult for him mother, Anjana, because he was creating commotion all over the place all the time, and everyone used to come to Maa Anjana & complain about his kid. Once, he irritated a yogi so much that he cursed hanuman that he'll forget about his powers. Mother Anjana told that yogi that cursing a small kid like this is a very wrong thing, yogi realized his mistake and assured mother Anjana that whenever he'll need his powers, Hanuman will remember them again. From that day till his meeting with Shri Ram, Hanuman spent most of his time sitting in Samadhi & chanting 'Sita Ram.' Once he met Ram, he took up an active role once again. So, yes, I too agree with you that Hanuman could have settled this Bali question without waiting for Shri Ram to arrive, but may be he was just waiting for his Lord to show up before doing ANYTHING.


And I love Shri Ram's decisionπŸ˜ƒ coz how can we trouble Vali's original wife for the sin Vali committed?I don't know about her character but this decision was good!
BTW what happened to her after Vali's death???

Bali's wife Tara has been recognized as an extremely erudite, highly knowledgeable lady by every serious student of Ramayan. after Ram became his friend, Sugriva returned to Kishkindha to challenge Bali for a battle. That time Tara clearly told Bali that Ram has recently accepted Sugriva as his friend, and Ram is the Supreme Lord. So listen to my advice and don't try to kill Sugriva. Bali paid no heed to her advice. In fact, when bali asked Ram why you killed me, I was the mighty king, & you would have been better off making me your friend instead of that Sugriva, Ram clearly told him the reason for killing him, saying that you deserved nothing but death, not my friendship, and Ram also added that you should've listened to the advice of your knowledgeable wife. Ram was in all probability telling Bali that he should have listened to the sane advice of Tara when he was coming out to kill Sugriva, and also when Tara was advising him against treating Sugriva's wife in that fashion (Tara must've advised her husband, just like Mandodari advised her husband Raavan many times, telling him about the true nature of Sita & Ram.) even after death of bali, Ram made it clear that Bali's son, Angad will remain Kishkindha's 'yuvraaj' that is, will rule after Sugriva, and Tara's status also remained unchanged in Kishkindha.

Again, Tara's intelligence was held in such high-esteem by one & all in Kishkindha that when an angry lakshman came looking for King Sugriva, he rushed to Hanuman & his sis-in-law Tara & requested them to somehow save him from Lakshman's wrath. And Tara & hanuman succeeded by talking lakshman out of his anger. (If you are vague about these incidents, just tell me. I'll return to these in next post.)

Word Count: 1

sherlock thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#70
Realized just now that I've not answered one of Krishni's questions completely in the previous post. I've given a sort of background to the answer but have skipped the actual answer. πŸ˜† Yes, in this mad rush to type quickly & hit the 'post' button, stuff happens. so, here goes. πŸ˜†


4)Hanuman knew all this before Shri Ram had arrived at their place so if really some adharma was going why to wait for some one to come and save?I mean even Hanuman was mighty!Why didn't he bang Vali and do justice for Sugriva?

Hanuman was a hyper-active kid in his childhood, & had made life extremely difficult for him mother, Anjana, because he was creating commotion all over the place all the time, and everyone used to come to Maa Anjana & complain about his kid. Once, he irritated a yogi so much that he cursed hanuman that he'll forget about his powers. Mother Anjana told that yogi that cursing a small kid like this is a very wrong thing, yogi realized his mistake and assured mother Anjana that whenever he'll need his powers, Hanuman will remember them again. From that day till his meeting with Shri Ram, Hanuman spent most of his time sitting in Samadhi & chanting 'Sita Ram.' Once he met Ram, he took up an active role once again. So, yes, I too agree with you that Hanuman could have settled this Bali question without waiting for Shri Ram to arrive, but may be he was just waiting for his Lord to show up before doing ANYTHING.


After this, the answer continues:

Had Hanuman killed Bali before the arrival of Shri Ram, the message behind Ram making Sugriva his friend would've been lost.

Ram accepted Sugriva as his friend when Sugriva was hiding in forests all helpless & lost, & not Bali, who was at that time a mighty king, capable of defeating Raavan single-handedly, and commanded a powerful army. Message here is, one should make friends on the basis of whether that person is worthy of friendship or not, and not on the basis of how much beneficial that person can prove to oneself.

Had Hanuman killed Bali and made Sugriva the King of Kishkindha, there would have been no question of Ram deciding who is good enough to be his friend.

In fact, not only Hanuman, Sugriva had Jamvant too with him when he was hiding, and Jamvant, though advanced in age, has been described as an invincible warrior. Sugriva himself was a great fighter, not comparable to Bali of course, but a great fighter nonetheless. But such powerful warriors like Hanuman & Jamvant were just sitting idle with Sugriva in the forest, as if waiting for Ram & Lakshman to arrive before deciding to do anything.

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