RAMAYAN JOURNEY OF THE SOUL! - Page 6

Originally posted by: sherlock

What are the rules governing Mayic Realms?(I want to ask something else but I'll do that after you answer this)

Out of the infinite powers of Brahm, only two concern us. One is His chaitanya (conscious) shakti or "ansh" (not to be confused as "part") called "Jeev" i.e. all of us. Secong is His "Jad" (unconscious, though not "dead" as we understand "dead") shakti called Maya. Now the sanatan problem with jeev is, he always wants "anand" (what we usually describe as happiness, peace, contentment, in our day-to-day conversations). Why? Because being an "ansh" of "infinite anand" it is his natural proclivity to try & experience his "Anshi" (Shri Ram). However having no idea who is this "Shri Ram" & how to experience his presence, jeev has concluded that these maayic realms all around him, must be containing "anand" & therefore starts viewing himself as a part & parcel of maayic realm. The moment he does that, all maayic rules get applied to him.

Every maayic realm is ever changing. Nowhere can we get a maayic realm which remains unchanged from one instant to the next. But "jeev" is exactly like his master "Brahm" never-changing, without any beginning or end.still, trying to get "anand" from an ever-changing "jad" realm, "jeev" always ends up disappointed in the long run. But since caught in a seemingly endless cycle he keeps on going.

This ever-changing nature of maya it's because of its three components, Satva, Raj & Tam. Their interaction & interplay keep changing the mayic realm continuously. Caught in this ever-changing reality, and yet always wanting the one & same thing "anand", jeev has no other choice but to continuously keep doing "something". These actions(karm) may be Satvic, Rajas or Tamsic in nature. But since every "karm" necessarlity produces a "phal", every cause has an effect, therefore based on whether his previous "karms" whose "phal" he has to endure were satvic or rajas or tamsic in nature, jeev keeps experiencing joy or sorrow, victory or defeat, enjoyment or pain, gain or loss......What are these???...Obey your elders,Respect your Guru,worship god,love and share with your siblings,help your friends,be a trustworthy partner etc...aren't these Mayic rules😕

Of course, most Karm do involve using the third i.e. physical body, but your body is never "karta" for it's maayic, hence "Jad."...Please explain this line once again!Does "Jad" mean beginning?)

We have already seen that chaitanya (conscious) jeev is the "karta"(the "doer" or karm) & will therefore naturally be held responsible when the time to endure the "phal" of that "karm" approaches. That time may come within moments of doing karm, or may come after billions & billions of years, there's no hard and fast rule about it. Jeev may have used any number of "jad" mayic objects to carry out his karm, but they are not karta, jeev is, & therefore responsible for "phal." For example, if A shoots B, the pistol which A fired or the bullet which killed B, are not arrested as murderers of B. a gets arrested. Our mayic physical body is similar to that pistol or bullet, both are jad, both are mayic, hence not responsible for "karm." That's why the moment we leave our physical body, people call it 'dead body.' Throw it then in the fire, it won't react. Reality is, it was always dead, but appeared living as long as we kept wearing it...Got it😊

I just wanted to know about these two powers of Supreme Soul 'Divine Maya' and 'Divine Leela'

Divine leela is an ever-happening, continuous, ever-lasting, never-changing, visible play of 'anant anand,' the one & only Supreme Personality that exists & known as ParBrahm, Parmatma, Shri Bhagvan. This play of bliss is continuously happening & visible in His sanatan abode, & is also present in all the mayic realms which He contains in him, but there, it remains invisible most of the time, & is rarely visible (as in the case of events which Ramayan records.) another difference is that this divine leela, when happening in His sanatan abode, is a clear cut manifestation of infinite bliss. That is, in their snantan abode, SitaRam, the true form of 'anant anand' are continuously worshipped by all their ansh (powers) & there is visible bliss & nothing else there. In the mayic realm, divine leela involves role-playing, the Lord & Bhagvati as hero & heroine, & then there may be villains, supporting characters & so on.

As for divine maya, say when Lord Ram is visible here, he is supposed to be the son of dasrath & Kausalya. However, he knows very well that he is nobody's son, actually everybody's & everything's parent. Still, he successfully plays the part of a mayic jeev, living his "life" as somebody's son, somebody's brother, somebody's husband. He does that using his power called 'divine maya.' ... But some Q. are raising...I'll present them in numbers...😊

Word Count: 1

Differentiate Casual and Astral bodies for me , I all ways get confused with them!

Let's use their vedic term, 'Kaaran sharir' & 'Sukshm sharer.'

As we saw in the last post, jeev, though looking for his parents, i.e. 'anant anand,' mistakenly thinks that mayic realm visible to him contains 'anand' and thus becoming a part of mayic realm, and interacting with it (doing karm), will give him 'anand' as a result of 'phal' of the 'karm' he will do. This submission of the jeev before maya fuelled by jeev's sanatan desire to be 'happy', where jeev willingly accepts himself as a subordinate of maya, though jeev is chaitanya, (conscious) & maya is jad(uncoucious), give rise to jeev's first level of subordination, i.e. his 'kaaran sharir.' Thus, Kaaran sharer is nothing but sort of first Mayic covering constituting nothing but jeev's desire to always be happy.' In fact, many a times, this 'Kaaran sharir' is called 'Anandmay kosh.' The only mistake, which is the cause of this Kaaran sharir, is jeev's foolishness that though he remembers his natural inclination to experience 'anand' forever (being an 'ansh' of infinite anand), he is trying to experience it through ever-changing maya, and hence is burdened with a 'Kaaran sharir.'

'Sookshm sharir' then takes jeev's illusory relation with maya to the next level. If 'kaaran sharir' is about our desires, 'sookshm sharir' is composed of many more mayic elements. This sharir has 17 mayic components – 5 Gyanendriya, 5 karmendriya, 5 pran, budhi, & mann.

5 gyanendriya + budhi = vigyanmay kosh

5 gyanendriya + mann = manomay kosh

5 pran + 5 karmendriya = pranmay kosh.

Thus, another way of defining 'sookshm sharir' is – coming together of vigyanmay, manomay & pranmay kosh.

Please, please don't ask me to explain these terms any further. It's mighty difficult for me.

Let's just focus on two out of the 17 components, for they concern us as beginners.

Originally posted by: sherlock

What are these???...Obey your elders,Respect your Guru,worship god,love and share with your siblings,help your friends,be a trustworthy partner etc...aren't these Mayic rule?

What all you mention are NOT mayic rules. Mayic rules are what I have mentioned, the rules which govern the operation of any mayic realm throughout the period of its existence.

What you mention, being trustworthy & so on, are SUGGESTIONS by Vedic literature to humans so that they live a happier life, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, humans lead a satvic life, because as we know, satvic karm will, sooner or later, give us satvic results. And this is what Veds want, that we always lead a satvic life, always do satvic karm, so that we get only satvic results.

One example will make it easy for you to get the difference between rules governing mayic realm and the suggestions for doing satvic karm only and leading a stavic life only, so as to get satvic results in the long run.

Let's say someone threw his old parents out of his house. This is against the suggestions of veds, which you mention. And why veds suggest not to do anything like this? because this is a tamsic karm, and one day, maybe next day, maybe 100,000 years later, the person who threw out his parents, will have to endure an equivalent tamsic phal (in accordance with Mayic rules.) to prevent such a situation, Veds make all these satvic suggestions which you have mentioned.

Originally posted by: sherlock

Differentiate Casual and Astral bodies for me , I all ways get confused with them!

Now I'll try to put this in my words(for my understanding)😊...

Let's use their vedic term, 'Kaaran sharir' & 'Sukshm sharer.'...Done!

As we saw in the last post, jeev, though looking for his parents, i.e. 'anant anand,'

So here I'm taking 'Jeev' as Jeevatma and 'Anant Anand' as Paramatma!

mistakenly thinks that mayic realm visible to him contains 'anand' and thus becoming a part of mayic realm, and interacting with it (doing karm), will give him 'anand' as a result of 'phal' of the 'karm' he will do.

I'll take this Mayic Realm as material world to which the Jeevatma got stuck to!

This submission of the jeev before maya fuelled by jeev's sanatan desire to be 'happy', where jeev willingly accepts himself as a subordinate of maya, though jeev is chaitanya, (conscious) & maya is jad(uncoucious), give rise to jeev's first level of subordination, i.e. his 'kaaran sharir.'

This Jivatma's will to be the slave of Maya as 'Ajnana'!

Thus form the 3 sharirs of Jivatma...viz;...Sthoola sharir which is nothing but a box or should I say some 'show piece' and has no function on its own,then comes the Sukshma sharir which can make the body dance in this material world and the Karana Sharir which gets attached to the Jivatma!

Thus, Kaaran sharer is nothing but sort of first Mayic covering constituting nothing but jeev's desire to always be happy.' In fact, many a times, this 'Kaaran sharir' is called 'Anandmay kosh.' The only mistake, which is the cause of this Kaaran sharir, is jeev's foolishness that though he remembers his natural inclination to experience 'anand' forever (being an 'ansh' of infinite anand), he is trying to experience it through ever-changing maya, and hence is burdened with a 'Kaaran sharir.'

So this Karan Sharir or desire is always with the Jivatma!

Can I conclude though the Sthoola sharir and Sukshman sharir go one day this Casual Body follows Jivatma and is the sole cause of next birth?...i.e we keep getting new Gross body+Subtle body if there is some Balance in our Account(Karm Phal)!

'Sookshm sharir' then takes jeev's illusory relation with maya to the next level. If 'kaaran sharir' is about our desires, 'sookshm sharir' is composed of many more mayic elements. This sharir has 17 mayic components ' 5 Gyanendriya, 5 karmendriya, 5 pran, budhi, & mann.

5 gyanendriya + budhi = vigyanmay kosh

5 gyanendriya + mann = manomay kosh

5 pran + 5 karmendriya = pranmay kosh.

Thus, another way of defining 'sookshm sharir' is ' coming together of vigyanmay, manomay & pranmay kosh.

Please, please don't ask me to explain these terms any further. It's mighty difficult for me.

Ok so this is a Multi Layered Process...I think I have to make a Diagram!😆

Continuing my story from yours...thus in the third level forms the Gross Body resulting in Karma then Phal then death of Gross body when the Subtle body(Prana+Mano+Vigyan Koshas) leaves it...due to the effect of Casual body there comes another Gross+Subtle(a tiresome cyclic process🥱)

Remembering something in Hanuman Chalisa by Goswami Tulsi Das there is a line "Sookshma Roopa dhari Siyahi Dikhava" they always show Hanuman in small size over there but I guess this not something like that!Here he wanted to present himself before Mother Sita only so he knew very well that Sukshma Sharir can't be noticed by ordinary Vision(for the demons over there)!But isn't the Divine Mother exceptional!Here Sukshma isn't small in size but the thing which can't reach an ordinary vision!Only a Divine vision can catch it...is it so?

Let's just focus on two out of the 17 components, for they concern us as beginners.

The most powerful component of 'sookshm sharir' is 'mann' which is attuned to our single desire ' get happiness anyhow. If not kept in control all the time by another component 'budhi', this mann will act recklessly & go mad chasing desires, because of the belief that if somehow all the desires could be fulfilled, we'll be happy. Since almost all jeev fail to keep their mann in control of their budhi, this gives rise to a comic-cum-tragic situation for jeev ' chaitanya (conscious) jeev acting all the time as a slave of jad (unconscious) mann. Remember, mann appears conscious to us because we are wearing it over ourselves, just as our 'sthool sharir' appears alive as long as we wear it, and the moment we leave it, it's dead. Mann then makes our sthool sharir a means of trying to fulfil desires.

Yes this is a Comic-cum-tragic situation until our mind doesn't get focussed with the help of Buddhi these desires keep raising resulting in our everlasting relationship with Karan Sharir

To reach the Anant Anand i.e Paramatma not one or two but all the three bodies are to be lost by the Jivatma!

P.S.Is this the thing you meant to say???😕

Originally posted by: sherlock

Love some of the questions on this forum, reminds me of days gone by, when I was really into reading scriptures & commentaries by bhakts. Also, I thought discussions here will revolve around the TV show & actors and actresses, you lovely people have taken it to another level.😊

though i have one question..so is it like sita got abducted in the last year of exile period ???

Yes.

and still we do not have interpretation or significance of 14 years... ??/

The moment you are clear about the three paths detailed in Veds, i.e. Karm, Gyan, & most importantly, Bhakti, you'll realize that the Vanvaas period is sort of a demonstration by the Lord of how to achieve Vedic knowledge & understand Vedic conclusions. Whenever Mom & Dad visit ashrams of bhakts & sages, they are telling us that the only way of understanding what the Veds conclude, is to ask questions about them, and discuss those conclusions with Bhagvad bhakts. And thus a sadhak has to seek such God-realised bhakts. Veds has a particular term for such Bhagvad Bhakts which a sadhak needs to seek. Or another way of saying the same thing is that Lord shows us, practically, how to live in the stages of Yam, Niyam etc. or I can also say that during Vanvaas period, Lord shows a sadhak how to achieve the stage of Sadhan-chatustya.

btw it is quite interesting to see that there is no interpretation of ram leaving sita ..or may be it is there..we just donno..

When Lord became king, his identity as King responsible towards his subjects became the primary one, his other identities became secondary. Was that a correct decision on his part? That's for every bhakt to decide for himself/herself, so I am not going to tell you what I think of the matter. Remember, as a king, abandoning mom was not the only strange decision he took (provided he took that decision. Give me an hour of free time, and a patient audience, and I can prove that the historicity of Mom ever being send away from Ayodhya on dad's order, is highly suspect. But that's besides the point here.) He was ready to give death penalty to lakshman for disobeying his king's(Lord Ram's) orders, even though lakshman by disobeying him had served the larger interest of King Ram's kingdom & his subjects by saving them from complete destruction at the hands of sage Durvasa. It was left to Lord Hanuman to save Lakshman from death penalty. King Ram then asked Lakshman to leave Ayodhya forever and then, since there was no way he could have survived with his own shadow Lakshman, immediately followed him out of Ayodhya and went back to his sanatan abode. So, the point is, as a king, decisions of King Ram can appear strange at times. Even if we put forward the logic that husband Ram lost his identity the moment there was a King called Ram, question can be asked that if to prove God-knows-what to his subjects, the king was ready to ask his wife & kingdom's queen, to leave the kingdom, what about the wife who being a citizen of the kingdom, & actually the first citizen of the kingdom, is being wronged to satisfy other citizens misplaced sense of propriety? Also, husband Ram clearly died, the moment his wife Sita went away, all that remained was a king existing for the sole purpose of serving his kingdom's people. But does giving in to blatantly wrong opinions of ignoramus citizens, & in the process destroying your own life as King Ram did, can be construed as SERVING them?? As I said, read, read, & then read some more, and reach your own conclusion.😊

Originally posted by: Krishni51

So here I'm taking 'Jeev' as Jeevatma and 'Anant Anand' as Paramatma! Correct.😃

I'll take this Mayic Realm as material world to which the Jeevatma got stuck to! Correct. 😃

This Jivatma's will to be the slave of Maya as 'Ajnana'!

Thus form the 3 sharirs of Jivatma...viz;...Sthoola sharir which is nothing but a box or should I say some 'show piece' and has no function on its own,

(Sthool sharir is the one which executes the satvic, rajsic or mayic thoughts of Sookshm sharir)

then comes the Sukshma sharir which can make the body dance in this material world and the Karana Sharir which gets attached to the Jivatma!

(put this in correct words. Just technicalities, really, otherwise you are completely right. No mayic sharir can ever get attached to chaitanya jeevatma. It's jeevatma who forcibly thinks that he is attached to his sharirs. This illusory attachment is the primordial foolishness of jeev, fueled by his desires to attain happiness always, and cause of karan sharir. But jad mayic sharirs have no attachment towards jeev. How could they? They are 'jad' for god's sake. For example, a person can have great attachment to his car, doesn't mean that non-living car will develop attachment towards that person. If the fuel tank is empty, that car will stop in the middle of deserted highway in the middle of nowhere at 2 AM, without worrying about what the person driving it & so attached to it, will do then. Similarly, no matter how much a jeev loves his physical body, the moment it breaks down irrecoverably (maybe due to old age or disease or some other factor), it will refuse to work & jeev will have to leave it & go somewhere else, regardless of his love for that physical body.)

So this Karan Sharir or desire is always with the Jivatma!

(only till the time jeev refuses to surrender completely before his parents and do a complete about turn to Mayic reality, that is only till the time jeev has not achieved his goal of 'bhagvad-prapti, to use vedic term. The moment that goal is achieved, no mayic sharir, infact nothing mayic remains. For then, jeev is with his Mom & Dad, who are the lords of maya, & contain Maya in them.)

Can I conclude though the Sthoola sharir and Sukshman sharir go one day this Casual Body follows Jivatma and is the sole cause of next birth?...i.e we keep getting new Gross body+Subtle body if there is some Balance in our Account(Karm Phal)! (NO! what we call death is separation of ONLY our current physical body! Both astral & casual always remain with us! They keep changing a bit all the time, but it's never like we leave a particular astral body & get another one, as happens with our physical body.)

Ok so this is a Multi Layered Process...I think I have to make a Diagram!😆

Continuing my story from yours...thus in the third level forms the Gross Body resulting in Karma then Phal then death of Gross body when the Subtle body(Prana+Mano+Vigyan Koshas) leaves it...due to the effect of Casual body there comes another Gross+Subtle(a tiresome cyclic process🥱)

(as already seen, neither astral nor casual body leave us before 'bhagvad-prapti.' Cause of unending cycle of birth & death is the infinite thoughts arising in astral body, arising out of infinite desires, continuously fueled by ego, both forming Karan (casual) sharir, these thoughts are then getting executed using physical body, and we have to carry the burden of infinite 'karms' upon us because of that. thoughts are continually reshaping our astral body (actually mann). LOOK, I'VE GOT IT. I'LL HAVE TO EXPLAIN ALL THIS USING EXAMPLES. THERE'S NO OTHER WAY OF DOING IT. EXAMPLES WILL MAKE EVERYTHING CLEAR. JUST WAIT. I'LL DO IT SOON.)

Remembering something in Hanuman Chalisa by Goswami Tulsi Das there is a line "Sookshma Roopa dhari Siyahi Dikhava" they always show Hanuman in small size over there but I guess this not something like that!Here he wanted to present himself before Mother Sita only so he knew very well that Sukshma Sharir can't be noticed by ordinary Vision(for the demons over there)!But isn't the Divine Mother exceptional!Here Sukshma isn't small in size but the thing which can't reach an ordinary vision!Only a Divine vision can catch it...is it so? (Shri hanuman is NOT a jeev! He is the expressed form of ShivParvati's LOVE for SitaRam & exists for only one purpose, to serve the lotus feet of SitaRam & in the process clearly tell all 'jeevs' what is meant to be a 'sevak' & a 'bhakt.' Keep in mind the reality of relation between SitaRam & ShivParvati. So again, he has no physical or astral or any body in the sense we understand 'bodies.' Now, if just for discussion's sake we take up that verse from Hanuman Chalisa & try dissecting it, two scenarios arise. One, hanuman turned his 'physical body' so small, microscopic I should say,(it's very much possible, accomplished yogis do that with their physical bodies all the time) that only the Divine Mother can notice that extremely tiny 'physical body.' Two, he made his 'physical body' invisible & divine mom saw his astral body.)

Yes this is a Comic-cum-tragic situation until our mind doesn't get focussed with the help of Buddhi these desires keep raising resulting in our everlasting relationship with Karan Sharir

To reach the Anant Anand i.e Paramatma not one or two but all the three bodies are to be lost by the Jivatma!

P.S.Is this the thing you meant to say???😕

(I've realized that the only proper way of explaining these things is through examples, which I'll give in my next post.) 😊

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Originally posted by: superdil19

nice explanations thanks