Originally posted by: HearMeRoar
Link to channel, @FP? I watched it before but can't find it now on YT
It wasn't mine. I used to do a podcast on someone else's channel
Have opened mine now
Please everyone subscribe to it
New channel hai not much visibility abhi
May be he found the similarity in the temporary sleeping with a stranger part.
But since the reasons of sleeping with a stranger are completely different, the question of equivalence does not arise. I completely agree with @Hearmeroar
Yes I think that was his point
The major difference I think which he ignored is was that Halala was necessary because because religion states one can't remarry his estranged wife after 3 divorces but Niyoga was done because biologically a girl had no other option to bear a child if her husband was dead/incapable
Personally I don't find Niyoga as a misogynistic practice at all
@FP I have a question. Regarding your Indrajit Sulochana FF you said that you are into bad guys. But are Indrajit and Sulochana considered as bad guys?
Not Sulochana but Indrajit definitely is.
His efficacy is burnt every year along with Ravan and Kumbhkaran in Dussera
Yes he had some good qualities but he is definitely overall a villian
I generally like writing on bad guys
Had written another one on Karna Duryodhan (through the eyes of Duryodhan's wife who was Karna's best friend). Will share that link with you
Originally posted by: Life_Is_Dutiful
Yeah as both @Vyapti and @HearMeRoar said, only the s*x part is common among the two, rest all are different. In Niyoga, the woman doesn't even have to marry the guy she was going to have s*x with. But one thing I feel is both the practices are against women if they're forced to do such things. For example, Satyavati literally forced Ambika and Ambalika to do it with Vyas to give birth to a heir of Hastinapur.
Btw, did Kunti and Madri also do Niyoga with the Gods they invited by chanting the mantra?
See people can exploit through any rule.
Even insurances schemes led to many murders can we call the scheme bad or misogynistic just because people misuse it?
Same is the case with Niyoga yes that has led to women like Ambika Ambalika being forced but that can't make the rule wrong
That was actually a way for women to have a child of her own
Yes Madri and Kunti would have undergone Niyog although that is not clearly written but the birth of Karna is pretty detailed. Suryadev did everything that would have been done during a Niyog.
Obviously it won't be called Niyoga in his case
Another theory is that he had some kind of disease which made sex and consequential physical excitement deadly for him.
So that Rishi curse on Pandu was fake? I don't remember the name of that Rishi but there was a story that Pandu shot an arrow at him and his wife when they were being intimate with each other so that guy cursed Pandu that he too will die when he gets intimate with one of his wives.
Originally posted by: Chiillii
Patriarchal society's obsession with a male heir was what we call as Niyoga.
Medical science has proven it now, but it was always the male sperm thar carried the Y chromesome necessary to have the masculine gender in an embryo.
It didnt need advance science to understand that as my Grandmother used to say. A mango tree cannot give an apple fruit (proverb is In tamil translated here). Society always knew that a woman's seed / egg cannot carry the male attributes. So if those are not present in a child it would always be the man's fault.
Yet a man's ego will never allow him to acknowledge that. Impotency was again another reason that men would refuse to acknolwedge.
In ancient society's a man's inability to have a male child was passed off as curse and women were asked to accept sperms from another male to provide a son that the husband could not by himself.
Sometimes they would use propaganda of boons instead of curse or yagya prasad. (Hanuman as Vayu's son, Ram and his brothers as Yagya Prasad, Pandavas as Mantra Prasad and there are 100s of them in the purana and epic)
Other times kids were adopted and claimed as divine. (Dhrishtadyumna Draupadi, Karthikeya, Sita)
Etc
All the above just to stroke the male ego. As simplest and straightforward and the best solution for childlessness is adoption of orphans.
Halala on the other hand actually strikes at the male ego though it is misused today just like every law is.
Muslim law makes dissolution of marriage for men (Talaq) very easy and women (Khulla) very difficult. To bring some sort of safety /kill switch is Halala. Threat to a man that if he divorces his wife in an impulse and then tries to get her back, he will not. Atleast the situation will never be same as before
A woman has to marry another man and consummate with him and spend six months. During which time if the wife has a change of heart if she falls in love with the other man or gets pregnant and decides to continue with the second husband she will not come back to him. Or even if she does get divorced, she has still been a wife to someone else
There is a Hindi movie Nikaah with Salma Agha Raj Babbar and Deepak Parasar. That describes this concept beautifully. Deepak is the first one and Raj babbar the guy salma starts out doing Halala. But then falls in love.
There is another one Gudiya which shows the negative or abuse of Halala starring Divya Dutta. Based on real story
Halala is actually not prescribed in Islam, marrying for the sole purpose of divorce and return to the ex husband is not permitted but obviously heavily in practice.
It is carried out because Islam prohibits a man remarry his estranged wife unless she has consummated her marriage with someone else (this second one is supposed to be a normal marriage not plotted/contract marriage)
Halala technically is a evil into the Islamic society rather than something prescribed
Niyog on the other hand is something actually with religious sanction
However adoption has not always been the first choice even today people go to an ivf center rather than to an orphanage. Niyoga was a woman's choice to get her own biological son, comparing that with an ill practice like Halala isn't something I am sure of.
But yes your point is worth seeing, in this way Halala is less misogynistic than Niyoga
Originally posted by: HearMeRoar
I would go one further and say there was no Durvasa boon or deity involved.
Pandu wanted kids, and he put about the divine origin story. Much later, Karna story came out and needed some explanation, so the boon story was introduced.
Sorry, Sutapasima. Didn't intend to tag you. I keep forgetting the new IF system.
Are you sure on this one?
I don't think Pandavas parents were some random people. I am not saying they were Gods but they (at least few of them) should have been some important rulers probably outside Aryavarta
Arjun's father gave him some good weapons, also to Karna, Yudhisthir's father adviced him to go to Virat for Agyatvas(which I think means he had already done some internal discussion with Virat and had informed Yudhisthir) even Karna's father arranged for rations to Pandavas and their party during Vanawas
I doubt these would have some random sages, they have to be some big kings
And as Chiillii said they couldn't have been approached by any random person so most probably Durvasa's boon had some role here
Karna was definitely a r**e child but by the time his secret was out she had already established the divine birth theory and her sons were the kings so she just extrapolated that boon to cover for Karna's birth too.
I don't think Durwasa had no role
Originally posted by: HearMeRoar
Also, Pandu wasn't impotent. He raped Madri eventually and died in the process.
He was probably infertile, so he needed niyoga.
Later, he forced Madri and was killed during the act. I would guess by Madri since she kills herself after, presumably to avoid talk which could potentially harm the future of the 5 boys.
But do you think the girls of those days were so strong that they could resist marital r**e?
I think they were filled with a thought that husband has full rights on the wife's body
I think he died of a heart attack or anything. Maybe he wasn't impotent but he was someone weak who couldn't take so much pressure
Originally posted by: Life_Is_Dutiful
So that Rishi curse on Pandu was fake? I don't remember the name of that Rishi but there was a story that Pandu shot an arrow at him and his wife when they were being intimate with each other so that guy cursed Pandu that he too will die when he gets intimate with one of his wives.
Yes the text mentions that curse onto Pandu that however necessarily wasn't true
Probably a cover up story to hide his incompetence
Let's not forget that Gabdhari had already become pregnant while Pandu despite two wives had no such news
Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism
Yes the text mentions that curse onto Pandu that however necessarily wasn't true
Probably a cover up story to hide his incompetence
Let's not forget that Gabdhari had already become pregnant while Pandu despite two wives had no such news
But Pandu definitely did something wrong and had to abdicate the throne as a result. Was there any rule that an infertile person can not be a king? I suppose not. Brahmahatya was a much bigger sin. Not a good excuse to cover up infertility.
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