Sleet of Emotional Quivers on RadhaKrishn Love CC#11 - Page 15

Mahabharata was also an ideological struggle. Forces of orthodoxy on Kaurava side vs forces of progress on Panchali-Krishna side. Not counting Pandavas because they were tools by that point.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Mahabharata was also an ideological struggle. Forces of orthodoxy on Kaurava side vs forces of progress on Panchali-Krishna side. Not counting Pandavas because they were tools by that point.

I don't think the forces opposite to Kauravas were unorthodox or towards progress

Yes Krishna and Draupadi were progressive relative to their time but the supporters were supporting them for their own benefit not for their own progressive mindset

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

I don't think the forces opposite to Kauravas were unorthodox or towards progress

Yes Krishna and Draupadi were progressive relative to their time but the supporters were supporting them for their own benefit not for their own progressive mindset

That is why I said Pandavas were tools by that point. The entire alliance was an attempt at a new empire. Vyasa and Narada were heavily involved in it. Panchali was the link between the rival kingdoms and the rival brahmin clans. Krishna of course was supposed to bring the Yadavas along.

But without that ideological struggle, the self interest motives also would not have happened. That is why Panchali is so critical to the plot. Without her steadfast insistence on karma, Dharma, the war wouldn't have happened.

I always wonder why we always associate mahabharat with the war I mean definitely war was a very crucial part of the epic but that's you might say just the interval

War gets over by the 9th out of the total 18 parvas like midway (excluding Ashwathama's Massacre don't considered it a part of the war)

There is so much more to it, it's like the journey of Pandavas from forest dwellers to the divine state (or if taken historically to an intellectual state) it speaks about the standards of morality in those days and the conflict of mind

That is like the basis of most of the smaller stories we know like Nal Damayanti, Savitri Satyavan, Yayati and his kids and a lot of them,

However people are so minutely taken into just a small part of the epic. Is it because post war there is no villian? And people want a villian in every story

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yes Kautilya's Arthashastra. Chiillii explained the things better and that clears much of my confusion

Coming to Duryodhan I wouldn't have called him a loser if it was till Karna Parva, yes he kept his zeal alive and everything but the Shalya Parva and especially his end.....

He fled the battlefield (worst thing for a warrior to do) hid himself in water not coming out despite his general's insistence. Asked Yudhisthir to take away the kingdom since he didn't want it anymore (like come on your insistence killed so many and now when it's about your life you want to save yourself)

And not just that his end wasn't that of someone great either. The fall of Bheeshm, death of Drona, Karna and even Shalya was filled with Valor, what about Duryodhan--He wasn't killed but was left bleeding and injured in midst of a forest all alone. No one was there to cater to him. Even his own team members (Ashwathama Kritvarma and Kripacharya) didn't find it important to at least take him from there and at least provide him a death of honor. They just left him bleeding.

He might have lived like a king but definitely died a loser (IMO)

People generally say that this one Parva shows the greatness of Duryodhan (probably because the supposed Pushpvarsha by gods at his fall) but I actually feel that this one Parva is in contrast to his character of someone who might have been bad but always confident about his deeds. He was someon

Mayb its only me, but I didn't dislike him till now, but his end actually made me dislike him

He didn't die like a warrior, he never fought like one, he never went out to win kingdoms, all this was job of Karna, so I actually don't see him as a warrior, he lived a very comfortable life

Originally posted by: NoraSM

He didn't die like a warrior, he never fought like one, he never went out to win kingdoms, all this was job of Karna, so I actually don't see him as a warrior, he lived a very comfortable life

😶😶😁😁😁

Not just that even abduction of girls for his marriage was the duty of Karna he probably only went there to ensure that he is one to actually touch the girl.

Aise me it really seems he used poor sobboy Karna. Karna fans were always right

Well jokes apart what I meant was he always seemed like a person who stood for what he felt was right but at the end it looked like someone very selfish. The end doesn't match his overall characteristics or personality we had encountered till then.

And more than that his death would have ok, him being left alone in a forest to be devoured alive by vultures seemed way too disrespectful for someone of his stature.

I really don't understand why didn't at least Ashwathama and others bring him back to their camp. That was the reason I called him looser

Other than that he was actually the only one earlier who actually behaved like a king

So what kind of warrior was Yudhishtir. Arjun won him Draupadi and Arjun and Bhima fought his wars and won for him.

And it was Yudhishtir who after millions died for him tells Dury let's have one on one to decide the war you pick the one to fight.

And Mahaprasthanika Parva goes whining Draupadi didn't love me more Sahdev' was smarter than me Nakul more handsome and Arjun better warrior and Bhima you ate all my food.

None of you deserve Swarga only I do.

Duryodhan atleast took on Bhima and died heroically.

Y'a vultures that Kripa Kritaverma and Ashwatthama were left him to prey on Pandava children and army

How does that make Duryodhan a loser

Chapter 1250(31)

...

“Yudhisthira said, ‘O Suyodhana! It is through good fortune that you have learnt about the dharmaof kshatriyas. O great-armed one! It is through good fortune that your mind has turned towardsfighting. O Kouravya! It is good fortune that you are brave and it is good fortune that you know aboutfighting, since you have single-handedly decided to engage all of us in an encounter. Fight with usone at a time, with whatever weapon you wish. While you fight thus, all the others will remain as

spectators. O brave one! I am also granting your desire. If you kill any one of us, the kingdom will beyours. Otherwise, be slain and obtain heaven.’

...

‘ “Yudhishthira replied, ‘O Suyodhana! Where did this wisdom of yours disappear, when manymaharathas united and slew Abhimanyu in the battle? O brave one! Don armour and tie your hair. Odescendant of the Bharata lineage! Take everything else that you need. O brave one! I will grant youanother of your wishes. If you can kill any of the five Pandavas with whom you wish to fight, you willbe king. Otherwise, be slain and obtain heaven. O brave one! With the exception of your life in battle,what else do you desire?’”

...

Chapter 1251(32)

...

Vasudeva angrily spoke these words toYudhishthira. ‘O Yudhishthira! In this encounter, if he had named you, Arjuna, Nakula or Sahadeva,what would have happened? O king! How could you show rashness like this? “If you can kill any oneof us, you will be king!” O king! With the desire of killing Bhimasena, for thirteen years he haspractised against a man made out of iron.22 O bull among the Bharata lineage! How will our task beaccomplished? O supreme among kings! Because of compassion, you have committed an act ofrashness. With the exception of Vrikodara, I do not see anyone who can fight against him in theencounter and Partha has not made a great deal of effort.23 O lord of the earth! It is almost as if theancient and unequal gambling match between you and Shakuni is being enacted again. Bhima ispowerful and capable, but King Suyodhana is accomplished. O king! When there is a contest betweenstrength and skill, skill is always superior. O king! You have placed such an enemy on an even path.You have also placed us in an extremely difficult and hazardous state. Having vanquished all theenemies and with only a single foe remaining, who desires to give that up in a single act ofgambling? I do not see the man in this world who can fight, with a club in his hand in an encounter,against Duryodhana, supreme among men, especially because he is skilled. With a club in the hand ina battle, I do not think Phalguna, Madri’s sons or you are capable. How did you tell the enemy to fightwith a club? “O descendant of the Bharata lineage! If you kill any one of us, you will be the king!”Even if Vrikodara fights against him, our victory is not certain, especially not in a fair encounter. Heis

...

Chapter 1276(57)

“On seeing the clash between the two foremost ones of the Kuru lineage, Arjuna spoketo the illustrious Vasudeva. ‘Between those two brave ones who are fighting, who do you think issuperior? O Janardana! Who possesses the greater qualities? Tell me.’‘ “Vasudeva replied, ‘They are equal in what they have learnt, but Bhima is stronger. However,Dhritarashtra’s son is superior to Vrikodara because of the efforts that he has undertaken. Usingdharma, Bhimasena will not be able to win this encounter. He will be able to kill Suyodhana only if hefights through unfair means. It has been heard that the gods defeated the asuras through the use ofmaya. The slayer of Bala robbed Vritra of his energy through maya. O Dhananjaya! At the time ofgambling with the dice, Bhima took a pledge that in the encounter, he would shatter Suyodhana’sthighs with a club. This destroyer of enemies needs to accomplish that pledge. The king uses maya31and has to be brought down through maya. If he uses his strength and fights through fair means, KingYudhishthira will face a hardship. O Pandava! I am saying this again. Listen to me. It is because ofDharmaraja’s transgression that this fear has again confronted us. Having performed the great deedof slaying the Kurus, with Bhishma as the leader, he had obtained victory and fame and an end to theenmity with the adversary. However, having obtained the victory, he has once again placed himself ina situation of uncertainty. O Pandava! This has been great stupidity on Dharmaraja’s part. He hasstaked the entire victory on the outcome of a single encounter. extremely strong and skilled.’

(See last post on page 19) Krishna's reaction to Yudhishtira's stupidity. The ultimate diplomat was angry enough to call the emperor names.

Panchali was of course much more blunt.

CE, Volume 4, 613 (17)

Droupadi said, “How can a woman, who hasYudhishthira as a husband, not be sorrowful?You know all my miseries. Why areyou asking me? O descendant of the Bharata lineage! Itburns me that an usherdragged me to an assembly hall, in the midst of the courtiers, callingme aservant maid. O lord! Which other daughter of a king, but for Droupadi, wouldwish tolive like me, after enduring such miseries? When dwelling in the forest,who else but mewould endure being molested a second time by the evil-mindedSaindhava?14 Barring me,who else can bear to be alive after having been kickedby Kichaka with his feet, in thepresence of the king of Matsya and while thatgamester looked on?15 O descendant of theBharata lineage! I have been tormentedby several miseries like these. O Kounteya! Don’t youknow them? How does itprofit me to be alive? O descendant of the Bharata lineage! O tigeramong men!The evil-minded Kichaka is King Virata’s general and brother-in-law. WhileIdwell in the king’s residence in the disguise of Sairandhri, the evil-mindedone incessantlyaddresses me, asking me to be his wife. O destroyer of enemies!Thus addressed by one whodeserves to be killed, my heart is bursting out, likea fruit that time has ripened.‘“

‘“You should censure your elder brother,who is addicted to gambling. It is because of hisdeeds that I confront theseunending calamities. Who else but him, addicted to gambling,would give up hiskingdom, all his possessions and his own self, so as to spend a life intheforest?

____________________________

Theywhose eldest brother becomes mad, have all to follow him in madness. Throughthy madness, O king, all the Pandavas are about to become mad. If, O monarch,these thy brothers were in their senses, they would then have immured thee withall unbelievers (in a prison) and taken upon themselves the government of theearth.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12a014.htm