The Clash Of Ideologies, Civilisations & Cultures - East V/S West. - Page 4

Originally posted by: Aditi_X

I know this might be an old or resolved conversation, but it is too interesting to not get involved. From your posts, it seems like you live in India, correct? I am just curious as to what is your source for the claims you have made about the West. If an idiot NRI living in the UK or US does not know the ground reality of the average Indian (and should rightfully so, not comment there), how does an average Indian know the ground reality of the average person living in the UK or US (both immigrant and native)?

News, discussions with a few people I know.

Originally posted by: EkPaheli

News, discussions with a few people I know.

Ahh okay, I see. I live in the US, and I think it is premature or an over-generalization to make statements about social decay or family decline in the West. As a whole, I understand your points.

It is the age-old debate between collectivist vs individualistic societies. Each has its own advantages and its own drawbacks; it is up to everyone to decide what they choose to prioritize. The Eastern collectivist notion puts more importance on the family and social structure which offers support and meaning but leaves less room for individual freedom and expression. Most modern Indians choose to come to the West, not for money, but for individual freedom (I can say this because I am one of them and am surrounded by them). The Western individualistic notion allows for more individual freedom but in that setting, it becomes hard to find social support and a sense of belonging that can be easily found elsewhere.

Just a couple things I would put out there as food for thought: Family structure doesn't always refer to the family you come from. There is also the concept of making a family, not by marriage, but by finding the people that become family. If you are related by blood to a narcissist, you shouldn't be forced to endure toxicity in your life just because.

Also, regarding the trend of having less children in the West, it speaks to the cost of living and the lack of support (maternity leave, childcare, etc.) here for new parents. Not sure if this is even relevant to this discussion, but I feel like it should be mentioned. People here still want children. But if they are not fit to be parents yet, they wait until they become so (financially, mentally, physically).

Yes, there are women who have children and don't know who the fathers are. Divorces are common and do happen for frivolous reasons. There are youth who shun education and struggle with addiction. And these are absolutely problems that should be remedied (or at least recognized). But this is not the norm here.

I don't write all this to defend the West; but moreso to promote nuanced thinking.

Originally posted by: Aditi_X

Ahh okay, I see. I live in the US, and I think it is premature or an over-generalization to make statements about social decay or family decline in the West. As a whole, I understand your points.

It is the age-old debate between collectivist vs individualistic societies. Each has its own advantages and its own drawbacks; it is up to everyone to decide what they choose to prioritize. The Eastern collectivist notion puts more importance on the family and social structure which offers support and meaning but leaves less room for individual freedom and expression. Most modern Indians choose to come to the West, not for money, but for individual freedom (I can say this because I am one of them and am surrounded by them). The Western individualistic notion allows for more individual freedom but in that setting, it becomes hard to find social support and a sense of belonging that can be easily found elsewhere.

Just a couple things I would put out there as food for thought: Family structure doesn't always refer to the family you come from. There is also the concept of making a family, not by marriage, but by finding the people that become family. If you are related by blood to a narcissist, you shouldn't be forced to endure toxicity in your life just because.

Also, regarding the trend of having less children in the West, it speaks to the cost of living and the lack of support (maternity leave, childcare, etc.) here for new parents. Not sure if this is even relevant to this discussion, but I feel like it should be mentioned. People here still want children. But if they are not fit to be parents yet, they wait until they become so (financially, mentally, physically).

Yes, there are women who have children and don't know who the fathers are. Divorces are common and do happen for frivolous reasons. There are youth who shun education and struggle with addiction. And these are absolutely problems that should be remedied (or at least recognized). But this is not the norm here.

I don't write all this to defend the West; but moreso to promote nuanced thinking.

The west has its problems and also its perks. I don’t live there and honestly have never felt the need to do so either not because I have anything against the west but because I don’t see any reason to move there.

The problem I am talking about with the west doesn’t come simply from their numbers declining, family as an institution being redefined and repurposed per their terms but also because I see news reports of their own people getting killed every day in acts of gun violence in schools which to me is horrifying. I see them cancel their Christmas cerebrations because they’ve invited people within their own borders who hate their culture, way of living and whose ideology is at complete odds with modern society anywhere. I see their universities becoming grounds for activism rather than education in news channels. I see parents enraging online and in news media as well as hear from acquaintances about actual children being groomed by books no child should be allowed access to, much less read.

Perspectives define things. As someone from the outside, viewing from a distance I see this as serious signs of decline. My opinion doesn’t change the reality of those living there, be they immigrants or citizens.

As they say it’s all about perspective - glass half empty or glass half full.

Originally posted by: EkPaheli

The west has its problems and also its perks. I don’t live there and honestly have never felt the need to do so either not because I have anything against the west but because I don’t see any reason to move there.

The problem I am talking about with the west doesn’t come simply from their numbers declining, family as an institution being redefined and repurposed per their terms but also because I see news reports of their own people getting killed every day in acts of gun violence in schools which to me is horrifying. I see them cancel their Christmas cerebrations because they’ve invited people within their own borders who hate their culture, way of living and whose ideology is at complete odds with modern society anywhere. I see their universities becoming grounds for activism rather than education in news channels. I see parents enraging online and in news media as well as hear from acquaintances about actual children being groomed by books no child should be allowed access to, much less read.

Perspectives define things. As someone from the outside, viewing from a distance I see this as serious signs of decline. My opinion doesn’t change the reality of those living there, be they immigrants or citizens.

As they say it’s all about perspective - glass half empty or glass half full.

Yes, all true and valid points. The issue of gun violence particularly hits deep. Thousands of people have raised their voices for stronger gun control and continue to do so.

I love that you mentioned differing perspectives and acknowledged that an outsider’s perception may (and often times does) differ with the lived experience of the country’s residents. I’ve been guilty of that too. My perceptions of India have not always matched what I’ve heard or read from the people living there. So I’ve learned to refrain commenting about that.

I’ve enjoyed reading your posts and having this discussion with you. It’s very rare to have a civil and even engaging conversation with anyone online despite having differing views or perspectives.

Only last thought that comes to my mind to express is that all of us must take news articles (especially sensational and triggering ones) with a grain of salt and employ our own critical thinking. It appears to me that misinformation and propaganda runs rampant all over the world, be it in India, the US, or anywhere else.