Weekly Discussion Topic #1: Bhishma/Karna - Who got deprived the most? - Page 3

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Posted: 3 months ago
#21

Bhīṣma did not feel deprived. In the same breath with which he took his vow, he declared, aputrasy'āpi me lokā bhaviṣyanty akṣayā divi - even sonless, I'll have everlasting places in heaven.


Karṇa felt deprived. He reproached Kuntī for depriving him of kṣatriya status: kiṃ nu pāpīyaḥ śatruḥ kuryān mam'āhitam - what uglier harm could an enemy do to me?


Satyavatī, the stepmother for whom Bhīṣma sacrificed his own interest, treated him with utmost respect. When she invited Bhīṣma to beget children to inherit the kingdom, ahead of her own son Vyāsa, she clearly regarded him as a suhṛt - well-wisher and not a balavat-sapatna - powerful rival as her father had described him. As soon as Satyavatī no longer had living sons, she thought that Bhīṣma should be anointed King and have wives.


Pṛthā = Kuntī, despite being Karṇa's birth mother, was keval'ātma-hit'aiṣiṇī - entirely self-interest-motivated when she urged him to join her sons. She chose to let Karṇa die rather than tell Yudhiṣṭhira about Karṇa, which would have resulted in the Pāṇḍavas submitting to their eldest brother Karṇa's resolve to share the kingdom with Duryodhana.


Loving2Missing2, your statement that Karṇa promised his mother her five Pāṇḍavas (and the word Pāṇḍava is very important because it excludes Karṇa) is untrue. Karṇa's exact words to Pṛthā (Udyogaparvan 144.22) are: na te jātu naśiṣyanti putrāḥ pañca yaśasvini nirArjunāḥ saKarṇā vā sĀrjunā vā hate mayi - never will you lose five sons, successful one, either without Arjuna and with Karṇa or with Arjuna if I am slain.


Those who are posting their opinion that a kānīna child (born to an unmarried woman and not begotten by her subsequent husband) had no right to inherit should refer to Ādiparvan 111.27-32, where Pāṇḍu tells Pṛthā that six types of children are bandhu-dāyāda - relatives and heirs, and kānīna is one of them. As Pṛthā's kānīna son, Karṇa had the right to call himself Pāṇḍava - (son) of Pāṇḍu, according to Pāṇḍu himself.


In the society depicted in Mahābhārata, dharma was a concept of what people should do for their own good. Dharma was fluid and debatable. The intent of dharma concerning family and inheritance was to provide every child with a clan identity and every dead adult with śrāddha. If the Pāṇḍava brothers had wanted to acknowledge Karṇa's right to rule as eldest despite his kānīna birth, they wouldn't have had to convince any court.


Pāṇḍu says that when one doesn't have the former or foremost type of child from the list, one hopes for a less eminent type of child in an emergency, but apatyaṃ dharma-phala-daṃ śreṣṭhaṃ vindanti sādhavaḥ ātma-śukrād api Pṛthe Manuḥ Svāyaṃbhuvo'bravīt - good people look for dharma-fruit-granting progeny that is superior even compared to one's own seed, Pṛthā, as Manu-of-the-Self-Born declared. He urges Pṛthā to find him children from someone equal to him or better. If Pṛthā had told him right then that her spy had located her kānīna son, begotten by the Sun-God, Pāṇḍu would surely have been satisfied. Yet Pṛthā chose to go on depriving Karṇa of his birthright.

In the footnotes (comments) of my fan fiction Sanātana Kapila Vāsudeva, I have elaborated on what the terms for various types of children may have defined. Here, I'll just note that in the list of legitimate relatives and heirs, a kānīna child of a man's wife is ahead of a child begotten by the man himself with a svairiṇī - a self-directed woman.


Karṇa was cheated by other characters too. Kṛṣṇa didn't just keep quiet about Karṇa's birthright; he outright lied to Arjuna (Karṇaparvan 51.50-66), telling him that maybe he's soft on his guru's son Aśvatthāman, his ācārya Kṛpa, his distant relative Kṛtavarman, and his mother's brother Śalya, but he should quickly slay imaṃ pāpa-matiṃ kṣudram atyantaṃ Pāṇḍavān prati Karṇam - this Karṇa who is malevolent and extremely petty towards Pāṇḍu's sons. Kṛṣṇa knew that Karṇa was a closer relative of Arjuna than the other four heroes; he knew that Karṇa was more benevolent than malevolent, having promised to spare four Pāṇḍavas' lives; he knew that Karṇa was not petty but magnanimous, accepting death in battle after dreaming about it. Yet Kṛṣṇa lied about Karṇa to get him killed.


Bhīṣma cheated Karṇa when he rated him ardharatha - half a chariot-warrior, knowing that Karṇa was an atiratha - more than a regular chariot-warrior. By provoking Karṇa to stay out of the war for ten days, Bhīṣma got sole credit for keeping victory out of the Pāṇḍavas' grasp until he chose to hand it to them.

Edited by Quantum-Dot - 3 months ago
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Posted: 3 months ago
#22

I don't think it is about who "felt" more deprived because even Anil Ambani can feel it while he looks at his brother Mukesh Ambani. Bheeshma was content with his life, it adds to his character that he wasn't envious or didn't live his life wondering or crying about what it could have been if he had a chance to be the King and marry the woman he likes, he accepted his status and his family. He accepted his reality and learns to live with it


Karna was envious since very beginning, when he didn't know about the truth of his birth, Karna feeling deprived wasn't an abrupt change in his life, he always felt it, that's who he was, an envious bitter person who wanted Brahmastra to kill Arjuna because he envied Arjuna's prowess as an archer 


To me their feelings don't matter. Bheeshma was rightful heir to the throne yet he lived a life of advisor dependent on whims and fancies of the King, he didn't want to fight against Pandu's sons, but it wasn't a decision he could make while Karna could make the decision of not participating in the war till Bheeshma lived 


Karna had parents who loved him while Bheeshma had to give up on everything because of his father's weaknesses


Karna lived life of a King, Bheeshma did not


Karna had family and kids, Bheeshma did not


The dyut sabha itself shows difference between power of Bheeshma and Karna. Karna was issuing orders to strip Draupadi while Bheeshma was helpless, Karna at this point had more authority in the court than Bheeshma



Karna feels deprived because he is a vain thankless individual unlike Bheeshma



As for Karna's right to the throne, he didn't have any, he was Kunti's son and Pandu never acknowledged him as his son, a world where an unwed mother had to give up her child is not a world where Kings are willing to accept their illegitimate kids, Kunti saved Karna's life with her decision and he got to live a very good life 

Yudhishthir and Duryodhana are already good contenders for the throne


Now lets say, Yudhishthira renounced his claim to the throne and accepted Karna as his elder brother


Would Karna be happy or he'd still feel that he was deprived of a good life because he has to spend 12 years of his life in exile? He would never get to be the King of Hastinapur due to constant struggles 


Karna as King of Anga lived a better life than Pandu's sons did, the difference was that unlike Karna, these people didn't wallow in pity and fought to make their lives better 

Edited by NoraSM - 3 months ago
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Posted: 3 months ago
#23

Originally posted by: NoraSM

I don't think it is about who "felt" more deprived because even Anil Ambani can feel it while he looks at his brother Mukesh Ambani. Bheeshma was content with his life, it adds to his character that he wasn't envious or didn't live his life wondering or crying about what it could have been if he had a chance to be the King and marry the woman he likes, he accepted his status and his family. He accepted his reality and learns to live with it


Karna was envious since very beginning, when he didn't know about the truth of his birth, Karna feeling deprived wasn't an abrupt change in his life, he always felt it, that's who he was, an envious bitter person who wanted Brahmastra to kill Arjuna because he envied Arjuna's prowess as an archer 


To me their feelings don't matter. Bheeshma was rightful heir to the throne yet he lived a life of advisor dependent on whims and fancies of the King, he didn't want to fight against Pandu's sons, but it wasn't a decision he could make while Karna could make the decision of not participating in the war till Bheeshma lived 


Karna had parents who loved him while Bheeshma had to give up on everything because of his father's weaknesses


Karna lived life of a King, Bheeshma did not


Karna had family and kids, Bheeshma did not


The dyut sabha itself shows difference between power of Bheeshma and Karna. Karna was issuing orders to strip Draupadi while Bheeshma was helpless, Karna at this point had more authority in the court than Bheeshma



Karna feels deprived because he is a vain thankless individual unlike Bheeshma



As for Karna's right to the throne, he didn't have any, he was Kunti's son and Pandu never acknowledged him as his son, a world where an unwed mother had to give up her child is not a world where Kings are willing to accept their illegitimate kids, Kunti saved Karna's life with her decision and he got to live a very good life 

Yudhishthir and Duryodhana are already good contenders for the throne


Now lets say, Yudhishthira renounced his claim to the throne and accepted Karna as his elder brother


Would Karna be happy or he'd still feel that he was deprived of a good life because he has to spend 12 years of his life in exile? He would never get to be the King of Hastinapur due to constant struggles 


Karna as King of Anga lived a better life than Pandu's sons did, the difference was that unlike Karna, these people didn't wallow in pity and fought to make their lives better 

Exactly and what about cheating by rating Karna as Ardhrathi.

While I agree he wasn't an Ardhrathi, but nothing proves he was Atirathi either. He was at max a Maharathi


Aside why did he have to rely on Bheeshm's assessment? If he felt he was great Atirathi, he could have still fought the war and proved himself?


I mean what kind of logic is this? If a senior member of my team calls me incapable then despite my boss having faith in me, I will be deny working with that senior member(knowing well that my super boss cares for me deeply and he will be highly affected in my absence) and then cry a foul play?

Edited by FlauntPessimism - 16 days ago
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Posted: 3 months ago
#24

Originally posted by: firewings_diya

Thanks for the tag.smiley1 I have not gone much details but as far as i know bheeshma was responsible for Amba's miseries. Whatever he faced it was because he also did wrong with some one else and we can consider it as his karma bite him back. Pandava's respectd bhishma even though he was not a king and the decision was taken by bheeshma himself and he was adult.so he did not faced humiliation as much as karna has faced. 

But i felt karna was punished for no reason since birth. Kunti abandoned him because she was not married and he had to stay in suth house. Not against suth family but being a royal heir he was punished because of his mother's mistake. 

He was constantly mocked and insulted for being suth putra. He was not given his rightful place even though he was elder brother of pandava's. 

He had some issues too like he supported kaurav's during draupadi vastraparana. But as far i rememember he never got directly involved in it nor he prevented them from doin it. 


He got the punishment for this when he died in the final battle. But whatever he faced before he met pandava's are more painful and make him more deprieved character.

He was the one who ordered for Vastraharan (not that he wasn't directly involved) also as I said he wasn't the royal heir, he was son of Kunti not Pandu to have any right

Also yes he was abandoned by his mother which was bad for him, but he lived his life as a legitimate adopted child of a set of loving parents, other option of living as an illegitimate child of an unwed mother in those days, would probably had been worse for him

Again Bheeshma abducted Amba much after having vowed for leaving the throne or not marrying 

Edited by FlauntPessimism - 3 months ago
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Posted: 3 months ago
#25

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

He was the one who ordered for Vastraharan (not that he wasn't directly involved) also as I said he wasn't the royal heir, he was son of Kunti not Pandu to have any right

Also yes he was abandoned by his mother which was bad for him, but he lived his life as a legitimate adopted child of a set of loving parents, other option of living as an illegitimate child of an unwed mother in those days, would probably had been worse for him

Again Bheeshma abducted Amba much after having vowed for leaving the throne or not marrying 

i watched mahabharat very long time ago. Bug as per my knowledge kunti had a boon. Where she can wish for a son from each god. 

Ideally none of the pandava's are pandu's son and everyone are kunti's son.  It was kunti's mistake that she tried to test the boon she got and ended up giving birth to karna. She was not brave enough to accept her child and decided to give him away. If kunti would have been bit more careful then karna would have been part of pandavas. He would have recieved all benefits of being elder brother of the family. He would have never had to stand against his family.

I agree karna is not innocent but he faced his karma during battle ground where he got killed by his own brothers. 

Regarding bheeshma, i believe he took the decision of not to become king. He was adult so the decision a adult takes they are solely responsible for consequences of it. So i do not feel it's destiny rather it was his choice to leave everything. Where karna had no choice when he was born.

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Posted: 3 months ago
#26

Originally posted by: firewings_diya

i watched mahabharat very long time ago. Bug as per my knowledge kunti had a boon. Where she can wish for a son from each god. 

Ideally none of the pandava's are pandu's son and everyone are kunti's son.  It was kunti's mistake that she tried to test the boon she got and ended up giving birth to karna. She was not brave enough to accept her child and decided to give him away. If kunti would have been bit more careful then karna would have been part of pandavas. He would have recieved all benefits of being elder brother of the family. He would have never had to stand against his family.

I agree karna is not innocent but he faced his karma during battle ground where he got killed by his own brothers. 

Regarding bheeshma, i believe he took the decision of not to become king. He was adult so the decision a adult takes they are solely responsible for consequences of it. So i do not feel it's destiny rather it was his choice to leave everything. Where karna had no choice when he was born.

Yes you are right about the boon part.


The difference between Karna and rest of Pandavas is that they were born post their wedding with permission of Pandu to beget sons from Gods.


In today's world you might take it at as Karna being a pre marriage child from someone else, while Pandavas were like children born post marriage through IVF since husband can't procreate. Children of wife post Marriage with others via permission of husband (known as Niyoga) was an accepted practice of child bearing unlike being unwed mother's children. Pandavas were born when Pandu asked his wives to have children from others for him. They were his Kshetraj santaan born of his wives. Karna was not. He was born to a woman who till then wasn't Pandu's wife.

Had Kunti been more cautious Karna wouldn't have been born at all. And had she decided to keep him, Pandu wouldn't have married her, that's the reason why such children were discarded. So noway Karna could have been like Pandavas or a part of that family.

Again it wasn't like he was forced to be against his family or fight them, forget othets even Duryodhan never pressurized him for that, he did that by his choice


I agree Bheeshma denied things which belonged to him as a decision he took, but Karna didn't lose anything except his birth mother by destiny. And thar losing mother and getting into other family was more helpful for him 

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Posted: 3 months ago
#27

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yes you are right about the boon part.


The difference between Karna and rest of Pandavas is that they were born post their wedding with permission of Pandu to beget sons from Gods.


In today's world you might take it at as Karna being a pre marriage child from someone else, while Pandavas were like children born post marriage through IVF since husband can't procreate. Children of wife post Marriage with others via permission of husband (known as Niyoga) was an accepted practice of child bearing unlike being unwed mother's children. Pandavas were born when Pandu asked his wives to have children from others for him. They were his Kshetraj santaan born of his wives. Karna was not. He was born to a woman who till then wasn't Pandu's wife.

Had Kunti been more cautious Karna wouldn't have been born at all. And had she decided to keep him, Pandu wouldn't have married her, that's the reason why such children were discarded. So noway Karna could have been like Pandavas or a part of that family.

Again it wasn't like he was forced to be against his family or fight them, forget othets even Duryodhan never pressurized him for that, he did that by his choice


I agree Bheeshma denied things which belonged to him as a decision he took, but Karna didn't lose anything except his birth mother by destiny. And thar losing mother and getting into other family was more helpful for him 

i agree that if kunti took a stand for karna pandu may not have married her. 

But i feel if karna was not born before marriage he would have been part of pandava's as i believe kunti used all her boons to give birth to pandava's. Karna would have been born anyways as there was no surya putra among pandava. 

She would have used her boon from surya deva too. 

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Posted: 3 months ago
#28

Originally posted by: firewings_diya

i agree that if kunti took a stand for karna pandu may not have married her. 

But i feel if karna was not born before marriage he would have been part of pandava's as i believe kunti used all her boons to give birth to pandava's. Karna would have been born anyways as there was no surya putra among pandava. 

She would have used her boon from surya deva too. 

Yes she could invite any God and she did that.

There was no fixed number of Gods she could have called, so if they wanted to have more children they could have had got more..


Now that's not something we can conclude if they would have called Surya otherwise or not 

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Posted: 3 months ago
#29

If it helps the discussion, I think the Gods who would reincarnate in form of Pandavas were decided by Lord Shiva 


1000009876.jpg


https://sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01200.htm


Karna is a separate chapter of Kunti's life. Pandu's sons, Draupadi and Lord Krishna all had a purpose, Karna did not. 

Edited by NoraSM - 3 months ago
Posted: 3 months ago
#30

Disclaimer: Totally my povsmiley36


Regarding Bheeshm, I feel he was more deprived in terms of his rights. He didn't got Hastinapur's throne, he didn't got his family, took oath of celibacy and even gave up the rights of choosing right or wrong as he promised his loyalty to Hastinapur's throne. So much knowledge and so much talent, still just because of a week father he had to give all that up.


Regarding Karna, he was deprived from basic human rights that should've been the rights of every lower cast citizen at that time, the right to education or right to equality. He was deprived of the things that others of his cast were deprived of as well. I don't think that makes his wishes or ambition any less important but he never wanted to fight for all the people who got unfair treatment he just wanted to fight for himself. He just wanted to proof That he is worth it by actually hating his competitors. I would not say Arjun was any less egoistic or something but Karna's mind was more poisonous.


Yes his whole childhood was painful and unfair but so was Krishna ji's if you think about it. So was of pandavas and Kauravas if you think about it.


Krishna ji's whole childhood was of course beautiful but still no one can deny it was tragic as well. Born in jail, got exchanged with other kid in storm, many murder attempts by his own uncle to finally leaving his whole place to fulfill his destiny 


Pandavas lived in forest then their father and step mother died and then so many hate they got from kaurav brothers when came to Hastinapur. Dronacharya preferred pandavs especially Arjun because they were more talented, how was it Pandavas fault. 


Kauravas childhood was also not good, Royal court tired to killed them as soon as they were born considering them as bad omen , then Shakuni always made them feel worse by telling them that everyone loves pandavas more than them.


Karna's parents loved him, still he wanted more, I am not saying it's wrong but why curse your destiny when you chose to write it that way 🤷