How many closeted LGBT people are there in Bollywood? - Page 6

Originally posted by: Blood_Sacrifice

@Citrus Expert: But that's my point. It doesn't affect their work output ... so what is the harm in discussing that?

Does being in a str8 relationship impact their work either??? Nope. yet we discuss it all day here. SRK Priyanka, Rani Adi (before marriage), Amitabh Rekha, yada yada... so if we can discuss that, despite it not affecting their workload, why not this as well?

I don't intend to speak for CriticusExpert. But I wanted to put my two cents in.

In an ideal world, we could discuss the relationships of all celebrities with the same nonchalance. In an ideal world, no one would have to come out gay and we wouldn't make assumptions about sexual orientation.

Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world. Even though Bollywood and a large portion of audiences are accepting, India still remains a largely conservative country. Being gay still raises eyebrows and questions. Many people still consider it taboo.

That is why many gay people in India still remain closeted or on the downlow. They do it for a wide variety of reasons. They may not be ready to come out yet. They may do it to save face for the family. They may also do it out of genuine fear. There has been a rising wave of escalating hate crimes against people who don't conform to a certain moral consensus. Bollywood as an industry has been targeted for drug use and all sorts of things. So being afraid to come out is a genuine fear.

Every person should have full agency and control into when and how they come out. It should be a choice they consciously and actively make. Never something that they were forced into. Therein lies the harm. For closeted LGBTQ people, speculative discussions can be traumatic, hurtful, and induce fear of being outed. There have been occasions where people have been outed or forced to be outed when speculative discussions hit too close to home or causes paparazzi to pry deeper.

That being said I know shipping and speculation is fun. I myself indulge in it. I indulge in a lot of Gaylor theories because I like the idea of it. So honestly, it would be hypocritical of me to tell people never to do it. all I can say is do it with the knowledge that its often a fine line and serious harm can be done when people cross the line. Being mindful of probable harm can help keep such speculations light and not too invasive.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

I don't intend to speak for CriticusExpert. But I wanted to put my two cents in.

In an ideal world, we could discuss the relationships of all celebrities with the same nonchalance. In an ideal world, no one would have to come out gay and we wouldn't make assumptions about sexual orientation.

Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world. Even though Bollywood and a large portion of audiences are accepting, India still remains a largely conservative country. Being gay still raises eyebrows and questions. Many people still consider it taboo.

That is why many gay people in India still remain closeted or on the downlow. They do it for a wide variety of reasons. They may not be ready to come out yet. They may do it to save face for the family. They may also do it out of genuine fear. There has been a rising wave of escalating hate crimes against people who don't conform to a certain moral consensus. Bollywood as an industry has been targeted for drug use and all sorts of things. So being afraid to come out is a genuine fear.

Every person should have full agency and control into when and how they come out. It should be a choice they consciously and actively make. Never something that they were forced into. Therein lies the harm. For closeted LGBTQ people, speculative discussions can be traumatic, hurtful, and induce fear of being outed. There have been occasions where people have been outed or forced to be outed when speculative discussions hit too close to home or causes paparazzi to pry deeper.

That being said I know shipping and speculation is fun. I myself indulge in it. I indulge in a lot of Gaylor theories because I like the idea of it. So honestly, it would be hypocritical of me to tell people never to do it. all I can say is do it with the knowledge that its often a fine line and serious harm can be done when people cross the line. Being mindful of probable harm can help keep such speculations light and not too invasive.

I understand. If speculation like these are hurting them on a personal level, then I will ask mods to close this topic. But I doubt a thread like this would be read by millions or would cause real harm. But if it is, mods can close it. :)

Guys please let Islam stay out of this topic, I'm a Muslim myself and I see so much wrong info here.. Just don't get into it.. it's very offensive.. Bollywood has nothing to do with Islam..

Edit: Yasir Qadhi is not someone you should follow if you wanna learn about Islam.. you shouldn't follow anyone who tries and bends the rules according to their convenience if you're trying to learn about any religion.. Follow authentic people pls..

^ No one has said anything deeply offensive about Islam here. Also being offended is part and parcel of any discussion. Wrong info? Sure, maybe, that's pretty much a given in an internet based discussion. I don't think it's fair to ask to end a discussion purely on the basis of subjective emotion like feeling offended. I feel offended by a lot of things but won't ask people to shut up based on that. Any public discourse can cause offense, but doesn't mean we shouldn't do that.

That said I agree this thread has got nothing to do with that. Plus Bolly forum is not a place to talk abt that. It was me and sweet chilly who started this discussion so yes we shouldn't have brought religion as this got nothing to do with that. But we ended that and no one brought in religion since then. :)

Originally posted by: sweet_chilly

Today incest and paedophilia is a taboo...are you aware there are lobbies who want to decriminalize incest n paedophilia as well and their logic is the same.. Love is love...wait 20 years our children will fight for incest and pd rights the same way we do for LGBTQ

This is a fallacious slippery slope argument.

Decriminalization of LGBTQ sex and supporting LGBTQ marriage rights was about consenting adults expressing their love for each other. Consent is important in all adult relationships irrespective of sexual orientation. If one adult is intoxicated, coerced, or nonconsenting - it is rape. And no society is never going to regress into demanding rights for adults to take advantage of children incapable of giving consent.

The criminalization of incest started post-renaissance. Prior to that incest was very rampant in society and there were tons of inbred families. However, incest increases the probability of birth defects. In addition to birth defects, incest can cause psychological damage as well. That is why most societies have prohibited incest. Society perceives incest negatively and that is not about to change. That is why despite being fictional some people have such a visceral negative reaction to the Alson Luther romance in Umbrella academy - we have been conditioned to see brother-sister bonds as important even if people are unrelated.

Originally posted by: sweet_chilly

A lot of people would definitely agree with you and hence do not follow Quran and have even left the faith and many still do not agree and stick to their faith.. Ultimately it's a human choice right? What is important is that just because I believ it's a sin that doesn't mean i will threaten some one who is a homosexual.. That is problematic...

Morality will always be subjective when it is by humans and changing times..

Today incest and paedophilia is a taboo...are you aware there are lobbies who want to decriminalize incest n paedophilia as well and their logic is the same.. Love is love...wait 20 years our children will fight for incest and pd rights the same way we do for LGBTQ

Society is all about accepting right..?. Then it should go the other way as well... Why should people who are sticking to their faith and not forcing their opinion be made to think otherwise.... I see this as hypocrisy from the liberals....

There is a difference between adult consensual relationships and sex when one party is minor.

We do not let children drink alcohol, drive, join the military. It's because their brains are not fully formed to make decisions on their own about anything, including sex. Therefore, they cannot consent to sex. Nonconsensual sex is assault.

Yeah... there are some criminals arguing for legalization of pedophilia. They should be taken out and shot for preying on the most vulnerable of all humanity. Nobody gets to touch children.

With re: incest. It was made illegal in most places because of congenital diseases. Or what we call incest now was perfectly legal in ancient Egypt. Cousin marriage was valid in ancient India. Re: Arjuna Subhadra. It still goes on in Islamic communities and some South Indian communities. There is a biological reason why it's frowned upon but has come to be reimagined as an issue of morality.

Adult consensual LGBTQ relationships are no one else's business because it doesn't involve someone who cannot consent or do any harm to society in terms of illnesses (any more than heterosexual relationships do).

No one has to accept anyone's private choices. But no one gets to discriminate on the basis of private choices which involve consenting adults. Let God do the judging, and I'm betting She will be more accepting than her fan club.

Originally posted by: sweet_chilly

Today incest and paedophilia is a taboo...are you aware there are lobbies who want to decriminalize incest n paedophilia as well and their logic is the same.. Love is love...wait 20 years our children will fight for incest and pd rights the same way we do for LGBTQ

I don't know how I missed this part, but and though I was wishing not to get into a serious debate, but this part compels me to post.

Regarding pedophilia: Sexual relations are only valid between consenting adults. At least someone who has the physical and mental maturity to understand and deal with the repercussions of sex. A child doesn't fall under that category. Physically, a child's body is not developed enough to have sexual encounters. Especially prepubescent girl or boy's bodies may not even be developed enough to take penetration, and can lead to damage and destruction of the organs. And that's just the physical aspects. Mentally a child can be scarred for life due to sexual molestation -- a lot of sex abuse victims carry that baggage until their death. They feel depressed, suicidal, sometimes hypo-manic all stemming from sex abuse in their childhood. Not sure how that can be compared with he loving act of two adult people in a relationship.

Regarding incest and comparing it with homosexuality:

- Incest is neither a sexual orientation nor a lifelong / irreversible condition. Sexual orientation is something that is (mostly) fixed and you have no control over. Incest is a sexual act, not orientation. An incest person doesn't just fall in love or have attraction for family members -- they can definitely seek relationship outside of that. Even if they get into a relation with a family member, they can definitely move on and find someone out of their family. Gay people, on the other hand, will (almost) always be attracted to the same sex. Even if they have 100 relations, all will be of the same sex as they cannot find someone outside of that attractive. This isn't the case with incest.

- Incest does cause harm. Most incests are of heterosexual nature and we know that it can cause genetically deformed children. No protection is 100% safe. Hell even cousin marriage (esp in Pakistan) has led to an alarmingly high number of defected children. There is no such harm associated with homosexuality. If anyone wants to argue "homosexuality can cause harm", I will need data/evidence to see that, unlike the huge number of genetically defected kids which stand as evidence against incest.

- Even mental harm arising from incest can be intense. Family relations are best left at family. Sexual/romantic relations are fraught with anxiety/jealousy etc. If a brother and sister get into a relationship, then they divorce/ break-up ... will that not affect their family dynamics? Even cousin marriage/divorces can cause havoc in family. When they break up, families often get divided, with one side on one cousin's side, and another part on another cousin's side. With parent-child or uncle-niece relation, it's even worse due to power play. Most of them are cases of abuse, either directly, or indirectly through power play.

- Incest (bro-sis, parent child, uncle niece) is pretty rare. It's more likely a one-off event in someone's life. They can move on and find someone outside of family. It's not a lifelong condition one carries with themselves until death (unlike homosexuality, where gay men continue to remain gays). Homosexuality is extremely common, and the LGBT population consists of at least 10% of the population. In fact it could be even more (bi people often label themselves straight due to social stigma or because they are in straight relations). By contrast, incest is a pretty rare thing and more like a one-off event in someone's life. It's not a fixed thing like sexual orientation, so makes sense not to legitimate it.

I don't know what our children will fight for, but there are valid arguments against incest and esp pedophilia. Nowhere close to LGBT issue. I understand you have different opinion on homosexuality (mostly stemming from religion) but please don't lump it with incest, bestiality, necrophilia and esp pedophilia.

https://youtu.be/wPR8dUCgoIM

Very good debate on incest and homosexuality... Do watch it guys when u get time

^^^ Clicking in the link just gives this page.

Originally posted by: sweet_chilly

https://youtu.be/wPR8dUCgoIM

Very good debate on incest and homosexuality... Do watch it guys when u get time

What if I said to him being Muslim is wrong? I could give you a dozen arguments why (just like I can for any other religion).

Could he give me a coherent argument after?

What this twit in the video did to his victim is even worse. Religion is not a fixed feature. Homosexuality is. He questioned the man's right to exist. Very few will have the presence of mind after to debate.