Fact-checking the show - Page 2 | Paramavatar Shri Krishna

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guenhwyvar

@guenhwyvar

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 7 years ago

#11

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..

I know Yadu's descendants could never rule all of Bharatvarsh like the Kuru vansh did, but my question was about the curse restricting Surasena's descendants from ruling Mathura. Mathura, and later Dwaraka was ruled by Ugrasena. Neither Vasudev, Balarama nor Krishna ever ruled, neither were they considered heirs. Why? I think Lola mentioned a separate curse/boon that pertained to the different factions within Yadhav vansh.

Lola said that it was a boon through Yayati, but the family tree shows that the common ancestor of Shurasena and Ugrasena is Andhaka, which is 7-8 generations after Yayati, so there doesn't seem like a way for Yayati to give a boon to Ugrasena's faction. Hopefully Lola can clarify since I'm curious too now.

Also, I recall from my childhood days that Shurasena was the King of Mathura at one point in time? I don't remember the source though.

Edited by guenhwyvar - 7 years ago

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 7 years ago

#12

Originally posted by: guenhwyvar

Lola said that it was a boon through Yayati, but the family tree shows that the common ancestor of Shurasena and Ugrasena is Andhaka, which is 7-8 generations after Yayati, so there doesn't seem like a way for Yayati to give a boon to Ugrasena's faction. Hopefully Lola can clarify since I'm curious too now.

Also, I recall from my childhood days that Shurasena was the King of Mathura at one point in time? I don't remember the source though.

Hmm I think it was always Ugrasena, that's what I remember, but yes let's wait for Lola to clarify. She's like an encyclopedia when it comes to Krishna's ancestors. 😆

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Sanjana

@Siya-Ram

Voyager

Posted: 7 years ago

#13

Thanks Lola Di for this thread.
Looking forward to discussions :)

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Srutha

@SriMaatangi

Sparkler

+ 4

Posted: 7 years ago

#14

Janu- Last I checked, Shoorasena was Krishna's grandfather, and was part of the Shoora clan, the clan to which Vasudeva belonged. Andhaka is Ugrasena's clan. And Devaki belongs to that clan, as does Kamsa.

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 7 years ago

#15

Originally posted by: KrishnaPriyaa
Janu- Last I checked, Shoorasena was Krishna's grandfather, and was part of the Shoora clan, the clan to which Vasudeva belonged. Andhaka is Ugrasena's clan. And Devaki belongs to that clan, as does Kamsa.

Yup, that's true Srutha. We are discussing the curse Lola referenced to explain why Ugrasena was made King of all the Yadavas and not Surasena.

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Srutha

@SriMaatangi

Sparkler

+ 4

Posted: 7 years ago

#16

I did read somewhere that the Vrishnis had a curse on them separately as well. Let me try to remember.

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 7 years ago

#17

Originally posted by: KrishnaPriyaa
I did read somewhere that the Vrishnis had a curse on them separately as well. Let me try to remember.

I think that's the curse Lola referenced too. Where is she when we need her? 😆

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guenhwyvar

@guenhwyvar

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 7 years ago

#18

Found this interesting bit from "Ancient Indian Historical Tradition" by F. E. Pargiter.

Link: https://archive.org/stream/ancientindianhis00parguoft/ancientindianhis00parguoft_djvu.txt

Link to scanned version: https://archive.org/details/ancientindianhis00parguoft (Page 170-171).

[quote]

There is a story that connects the Yadavas and Rama of Ayodhya.

It is prefaced by a spurious genealogy noticed in chapter X, but the

material passage ^ appears to contain genuine tradition because it

is corroborated elsewhere and explains the name of the country

Surasena. It gives these descendants of the great Yadava king

Madhu,^ namely, Madhava, his son Satvata, his son Bhima and his

son Andhaka, and these tally with the genealogical version Satvant,

Satvata, and Andhaka. It says BhIma Satvata was contemporary

with Rama ; Ramans brother Satrughna killed the Yadava Lavana,

cut down the forest Madhuvana and built the city Mathura there

;

when Rama and his brothers died, Bhima recovered the city ; and

Andhaka reigned there contemporary with Ramans son Kusa at

Ayodhya. The genealogies say that Satrughna killed the Madhava

Lavana, went to Madhuvana, built Mathura and reigned there with

his two sons Subahu and Surasena.^ Here then we have Satvant

and Bhima contemporary with Rama, and Andhaka with Kusa.

Another version * amplifies what the genealogies say with some

mistaken embellishments, as that Lavana was son, instead of

descendant, of Madhu, and that Madhuvana was in Ayodhya

territory, whereas South Pancala separated them. The Ramayana gives a third version, similar but largely amplified and brahmanized

with various mistakes.^ Mathura was the capital o the Surasena

country ; the country appears to have obtained its name from

Satrughna's son Surasena,^ and Andhaka's descendants reigned there

down to Ugrasena and Kamsa ; so the second version says.[/quote]

Here are the two pages with footnotes that I couldn't include:

http://docdro.id/kC8Xjpd

This suggests that the Andhaka tribe ruled over Mathura for a very long time. Couldn't find any information on the curse however.

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guenhwyvar

@guenhwyvar

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 7 years ago

#19

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..

I think that's the curse Lola referenced too. Where is she when we need her? 😆

I found Lola's post from 2011 in that Mytho Masti GOTW thread where she mentioned the curse. 😆😆😆

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guenhwyvar

@guenhwyvar

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 7 years ago

#20

Why do the CVs set themselves up to bite themselves in the ass later?

Looking at just the first two episodes, there is so much misinformation due to entertainment purposes. What exactly is wrong with Vasudev being that calm, rational person that he was, versus this hyperactive character?

Here are a list of things of some of the major things I noticed in the first two episodes (not going to mention Gokul)

1) Ugrasena being arrested BEFORE the wedding.

--- Per the Srimad Bhagavatam, Kamsa took over after Devaki's first son was born - after Narada informed him of his previous life.

2) Vasudev being such a hot head.

--- Vasudev's actions as described in the Bhagavatam never indicated that he would have used violence over peace. He tried to convince Kamsa not to kill his sister, and since that didn't work, he conceded to offering his children to Kamsa.

SB 10.1.46 ukadeva Gosvm continued: O best of the Kuru dynasty, Kasa was fiercely cruel and was actually a follower of the Rkasas. Therefore he could be neither pacified nor terrified by the good instructions given by Vasudeva. He did not care about the results of sinful activities, either in this life or in the next.

SB 10.1.47 When Vasudeva saw that Kasa was determined to kill his sister Devak, he thought to himself very deeply. Considering the imminent danger of death, he thought of another plan to stop Kasa.

SB 10.1.48 As long as he has intelligence and bodily strength, an intelligent person must try to avoid death. This is the duty of every embodied person. But if death cannot be avoided in spite of one's endeavors, a person facing death commits no offense.

SB 10.1.49-50 Vasudeva considered: By delivering all my sons to Kasa, who is death personified, I shall save the life of Devak. Perhaps Kasa will die before my sons take birth, or, since he is already destined to die at the hands of my son, one of my sons may kill him. For the time being, let me promise to hand over my sons so that Kasa will give up this immediate threat, and if in due course of time Kasa dies, I shall have nothing to fear.

SB 10.1.51 When a fire, for some unseen reason, leaps over one piece of wood and sets fire to the next, the reason is destiny. Similarly, when a living being accepts one kind of body and leaves aside another, there is no other reason than unseen destiny.

SB 10.1.52 After thus considering the matter as far as his knowledge would allow, Vasudeva submitted his proposal to the sinful Kasa with great respect.

SB 10.1.53 Vasudeva's mind was full of anxiety because his wife was facing danger, but in order to please the cruel, shameless and sinful Kasa, he externally smiled and spoke to him as follows.

3. Kamsa's weird transformation to that devil with supernatural powers.

---- More so a criticism: That was an odd part in Episode 2 for me. They showed Vasudev to be more powerful than Kamsa, and then only way to redeem that was to make Kamsa morph into a demon-demon. Why even go that route to begin with?

4. As mentioned before, Vasudev wasn't King of Mahismati.

---- I'm not sure why they had to even introduce him as such or why they mentioned that Mahismati and Mathura were enemies. It just complicates the story for no reason.

5. Devaki agreed to hand over her 8th son.

---- Err ...

SB 10.1.54 Vasudeva said: O best of the sober, you have nothing to fear from your sister Devak because of what you have heard from the unseen omen. The cause of death will be her sons. Therefore I promise that when she gives birth to the sons from whom your fear has arisen, I shall deliver them all unto your hands.

All the show does is further prompt Kamsa to be an even more evil character, but the problem is that the director and the CVs don't know how to make an evil character. &Kamsa (as I call him) comes off as a creepy fellow. Sure he is a mean person, but he's more creepy with his "Bhagavan &Kamsa", his odd dialogues, and not to mention the actor's style of delivery.

6. Yashoda

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