Posted:
Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism
Anyone on this??
I guess all are losing interest in the epic.
Please@Chhiilli guide us more
how would he remove the symbol n give when asked?
Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism
Anyone on this??
I guess all are losing interest in the epic.
Please@Chhiilli guide us more
how would he remove the symbol n give when asked?
how would he remove the symbol n give when asked?
Maybe that symbol was tattooed and he removed it. Hence blood oozed out if his body when he removed it?
Some statements given in the epic about the Kavach and Kundala. We have to take them as facts.
1. Kundala belonged to Aditi who gave them to Surya and Surya gave it to Karna at Kunti's request.
2. Kavach was similar to the one worn by Surya, but was not the one he was wearing.
3. Kavach and Kundala both were made of Amrita and both together kept Karna alive.
4. As long as Karna wore the Kavach and Kundala he cannot be killed. He was unslayable.
5. Karna was born with the Kavach and Kundala. He didn't get it after birth.
6. Kavach and Kundala were always visible to everyone. They were never in disguise or invisible. They shined with a golden hue.
7. Everyone knew Adirath's is not Karna's biological father. That he was found floating in a river and adopted by Adhirath and Radha.
All the above facts raise a lot of questions instead of answering any.
Aditi and her earrings are pretty famous in the Puranas. Of course she can have many of them, nevertheless each is supposed to be unique and very famous.
So how come no one ever asked Karna about his biological parents
How come Karna never had the curiosity or worry regarding them
How come Karna never thought what if I am not abandoned, rather my parents are in danger and I am separated from them and I must find them to rescue them.
Most importantly Karna tells Parshuram I am a Brahmin of Bhrigu's gotra like you. And Parshuram is not surprised that a guy with divine armor is coming and telling him he is his distant relative and he doesn't even know about this guy.
No answer to any of the above questions makes the whole list of facts just some magic mumbo-jumbo.
It was most likely an unidentifiable bronze armor and gold earrings. Family heirlooms but still unidentifiable and definetly protective but not unique.
Because if they were one of a kind, people would know Karna's father just by looking at them
Originally posted by: Chiillii
Some statements given in the epic about the Kavach and Kundala. We have to take them as facts.
1. Kundala belonged to Aditi who gave them to Surya and Surya gave it to Karna at Kunti's request.
2. Kavach was similar to the one worn by Surya, but was not the one he was wearing.
3. Kavach and Kundala both were made of Amrita and both together kept Karna alive.
4. As long as Karna wore the Kavach and Kundala he cannot be killed. He was unslayable.
5. Karna was born with the Kavach and Kundala. He didn't get it after birth.
6. Kavach and Kundala were always visible to everyone. They were never in disguise or invisible. They shined with a golden hue.
7. Everyone knew Adirath's is not Karna's biological father. That he was found floating in a river and adopted by Adhirath and Radha.
All the above facts raise a lot of questions instead of answering any.
Aditi and her earrings are pretty famous in the Puranas. Of course she can have many of them, nevertheless each is supposed to be unique and very famous.
So how come no one ever asked Karna about his biological parents
How come Karna never had the curiosity or worry regarding them
How come Karna never thought what if I am not abandoned, rather my parents are in danger and I am separated from them and I must find them to rescue them.
Most importantly Karna tells Parshuram I am a Brahmin of Bhrigu's gotra like you. And Parshuram is not surprised that a guy with divine armor is coming and telling him he is his distant relative and he doesn't even know about this guy.
No answer to any of the above questions makes the whole list of facts just some magic mumbo-jumbo.
It was most likely an unidentifiable bronze armor and gold earrings. Family heirlooms but still unidentifiable and definetly protective but not unique.
Because if they were one of a kind, people would know Karna's father just by looking at them
I agree on this. Karna's Kawatch kundal are given too much importance and still people consider him lowly born that's completely contary to each other.
But if those were not so important then why did Sakra/Indra/Arjun's biological dad actually think of trading it with some high quality weapon. It has to be something which increased his capacity/protectiveness over others. Something which gave them an advantage.
Plus the armour was with him since infancy/birth and apparently grew with him (like a body part), if it was a normal armour, then that would mean that his biological father was in touch with him and gave him the body fitted armour in regular intervals. That perfectly makes sense because he doesn't ask about his father when Krishna tells him that Kunti is his mother(I mean to think of it, any normal adopted person if told about the biological mother would ask about the biological dad in the very next moment) but he didn't, which means he probably knew his dad (I think he knew his mom too and that would give him the reason to hate Pandavas) .
But then the question comes if it was a niche yet not unique armour why didn't Karna try to connect with his biological father and get a new one(maybe he had died by then and his half siblings denied to give him the heirloom) and why did Indra think it to be so important that too trade a superior quality weapon to him
Or is this entire Kawatch Kundal thing and Indra donation an interpolation(Bhasa's play KarnaBharam is based on that episode although there it happens on day 11 of the war itself when Shalya is taking him to the Warfield) this means that by 5th century CE, the armour trade was an established fact
Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism
I agree on this. Karna's Kawatch kundal are given too much importance and still people consider him lowly born that's completely contary to each other.
But if those were not so important then why did Sakra/Indra/Arjun's biological dad actually think of trading it with some high quality weapon. It has to be something which increased his capacity/protectiveness over others. Something which gave them an advantage.
Plus the armour was with him since infancy/birth and apparently grew with him (like a body part), if it was a normal armour, then that would mean that his biological father was in touch with him and gave him the body fitted armour in regular intervals. That perfectly makes sense because he doesn't ask about his father when Krishna tells him that Kunti is his mother(I mean to think of it, any normal adopted person if told about the biological mother would ask about the biological dad in the very next moment) but he didn't, which means he probably knew his dad (I think he knew his mom too and that would give him the reason to hate Pandavas) .
But then the question comes if it was a niche yet not unique armour why didn't Karna try to connect with his biological father and get a new one(maybe he had died by then and his half siblings denied to give him the heirloom) and why did Indra think it to be so important that too trade a superior quality weapon to him
Or is this entire Kawatch Kundal thing and Indra donation an interpolation(Bhasa's play KarnaBharam is based on that episode although there it happens on day 11 of the war itself when Shalya is taking him to the Warfield) this means that by 5th century CE, the armour trade was an established fact
KK could be made of bronze and extremely malleable, which must have a given a perception that it is like a second skin on Karna. But may not necessarily be so.
Also I don't believe that Karna was born with the armor and wore it as a baby. And he floated down alone on a basket in the river. And the spies followed him
He was most likely given with spies in their hand with the armor and sent to his biological father.
The armor Ofcourse was tougher than all available at the time but was not uniquely identifiable. Hence a lot of people didn't realise who was Karna's biological parents.
Kunti asks for them to be used for sending the child to the father. Once he is born, the baby cannot be connected to the mother. She sends it with spies whom no one can ever link with Kuntibhoj. The baby however carries the grandmother's earrings so the father cannot say its not his. Once the baby reaches the father. He gives to Adhirath's for adoption. As he doesn't want the baby too.
And a miracle story is cooked up to cover all that.
Indra asks for the KK before Agyatwas. KK had been preparing Arjun for the war. He knows Arjun had enough in his arsenal to take care of Karna. Yet he asks for KK, why?
Because Indra and I am sure Krishna were dead set on a war happening. The KK could be used by Karna to blackmail Kunti to reveal to her sons that he is their brother. And it may stop the war.
Karna at this point was way weaker than Arjun. Ghosayatra was proof of that. If Karna used the armor to bring his daddy to Kunti and they both emotionally blackmail her in front of Pandavas all will be lost. Yudhi was too conscious of his image in any case.
So Indra takes the armor away. And gives him a single use weapon with a lot of conditions. Krishna anyways has lined up Ghatothkach whom both Indra and Krishna wouldn't mind dead or rather would prefer dead.
And if at all Karna does use Shakti on Arjun, Arjun had enough counters for a plan B.
Originally posted by: Chiillii
KK could be made of bronze and extremely malleable, which must have a given a perception that it is like a second skin on Karna. But may not necessarily be so.
Also I don't believe that Karna was born with the armor and wore it as a baby. And he floated down alone on a basket in the river. And the spies followed him
He was most likely given with spies in their hand with the armor and sent to his biological father.
The armor Ofcourse was tougher than all available at the time but was not uniquely identifiable. Hence a lot of people didn't realise who was Karna's biological parents.
Kunti asks for them to be used for sending the child to the father. Once he is born, the baby cannot be connected to the mother. She sends it with spies whom no one can ever link with Kuntibhoj. The baby however carries the grandmother's earrings so the father cannot say its not his. Once the baby reaches the father. He gives to Adhirath's for adoption. As he doesn't want the baby too.
And a miracle story is cooked up to cover all that.
Indra asks for the KK before Agyatwas. KK had been preparing Arjun for the war. He knows Arjun had enough in his arsenal to take care of Karna. Yet he asks for KK, why?
Because Indra and I am sure Krishna were dead set on a war happening. The KK could be used by Karna to blackmail Kunti to reveal to her sons that he is their brother. And it may stop the war.
Karna at this point was way weaker than Arjun. Ghosayatra was proof of that. If Karna used the armor to bring his daddy to Kunti and they both emotionally blackmail her in front of Pandavas all will be lost. Yudhi was too conscious of his image in any case.
So Indra takes the armor away. And gives him a single use weapon with a lot of conditions. Krishna anyways has lined up Ghatothkach whom both Indra and Krishna wouldn't mind dead or rather would prefer dead.
And if at all Karna does use Shakti on Arjun, Arjun had enough counters for a plan B.
No I didn't mean that Karna was born with an armour. Obviously that's not possible, I mean even if divinity was prevalent, the girl would have died in childbirth had someone with metallic armour being coming out of her, I meant that if Karna is said to have been born with armour then he might have been given one when he was still an infant.
Now definitely the the same armour wouldn't fit him when he became say 5 years of age, the armour he used when he was 5 wouldn't fit him when he got 12, and the armour at 12 wouldn't fit him once he was an adult. So this means his armour was repeatedly replaced by his biological father. That couldn't have happened had he not known who his father was. He probably knew his biological father whom he met in regular intervals just that he couldn't openly announce about it.
Coming to the reason you gave, I don't think that was so important, firstly if it was only about emotional blackmailing, firstly Kunti wouldn't have got emotionally blackmailed especially after what Karna did to Draupadi, secondly even if she would have, the armour wouldn't have been of much importance in the process, if Karna wanted to blackmail her, he could have done it even without the armour, he n his biological father(who definitely knew him) could have come together and blackmailed her emotionally the way Indra or Krishna didn't want
Aside if that was the reason then Krishna wouldn't have revealed the relationship between Kunti n Karna to him, this sound have had the complete different case
Plus Duryodhan wanted the kingdom because he felt it was his right he wouldn't have liked it as a charity from Karna.
Yes I agree that the gift wouldn't have been a very good weapon but still the importance of armour to be removed seems something else
Originally posted by: Chiillii
KK could be made of bronze and extremely malleable, which must have a given a perception that it is like a second skin on Karna. But may not necessarily be so.
Also I don't believe that Karna was born with the armor and wore it as a baby. And he floated down alone on a basket in the river. And the spies followed him
He was most likely given with spies in their hand with the armor and sent to his biological father.
The armor Ofcourse was tougher than all available at the time but was not uniquely identifiable. Hence a lot of people didn't realise who was Karna's biological parents.
Kunti asks for them to be used for sending the child to the father. Once he is born, the baby cannot be connected to the mother. She sends it with spies whom no one can ever link with Kuntibhoj. The baby however carries the grandmother's earrings so the father cannot say its not his. Once the baby reaches the father. He gives to Adhirath's for adoption. As he doesn't want the baby too.
And a miracle story is cooked up to cover all that.
Indra asks for the KK before Agyatwas. KK had been preparing Arjun for the war. He knows Arjun had enough in his arsenal to take care of Karna. Yet he asks for KK, why?
Because Indra and I am sure Krishna were dead set on a war happening. The KK could be used by Karna to blackmail Kunti to reveal to her sons that he is their brother. And it may stop the war.
Karna at this point was way weaker than Arjun. Ghosayatra was proof of that. If Karna used the armor to bring his daddy to Kunti and they both emotionally blackmail her in front of Pandavas all will be lost. Yudhi was too conscious of his image in any case.
So Indra takes the armor away. And gives him a single use weapon with a lot of conditions. Krishna anyways has lined up Ghatothkach whom both Indra and Krishna wouldn't mind dead or rather would prefer dead.
And if at all Karna does use Shakti on Arjun, Arjun had enough counters for a plan B.
Hey I just found this detailed article on Aryan invasion/migration Theory (debunking it)
Please check it once and respond. I added it here because you might have not looked into a new topic if I posted.
Not sure but if this is true AIT/AIM is nothing nothing more than mythology.
Do you suggest any books in this regard
http://indiafacts.org/aryan-invasion-myth-21st-century-science-debunks-19th-century-indology/
I can't say anything about the genetics part as I have no knowledge of genetics. But rest of the part is something I agree with totally.
I have read P Lal's articles. Other than that not much is available online. You can search for them online.
We have BJP now in its second term and they are still coming to grips with the economy and legal mess in the country.
So research into the past is not something on the priority list today. Hopefully the government once it's able to get through the third term.it should be able to do something about it.
Research on Dwarka is definetly on the agenda of the government so I hope we get some more information from that
However breaking the leftist choke hold on education is something they have been working on. Romila Thapar and other west inspired left leaning historians are not going to be there once their terms expire. Why do you think JNU students are protesting for anything and everything. And now NEP once implemented will be followed with a revamp of syllabus in every subject including history.
Originally posted by: Chiillii
I can't say anything about the genetics part as I have no knowledge of genetics. But rest of the part is something I agree with totally.
I have read P Lal's articles. Other than that not much is available online. You can search for them online.
We have BJP now in its second term and they are still coming to grips with the economy and legal mess in the country.
So research into the past is not something on the priority list today. Hopefully the government once it's able to get through the third term.it should be able to do something about it.
Research on Dwarka is definetly on the agenda of the government so I hope we get some more information from that
However breaking the leftist choke hold on education is something they have been working on. Romila Thapar and other west inspired left leaning historians are not going to be there once their terms expire. Why do you think JNU students are protesting for anything and everything. And now NEP once implemented will be followed with a revamp of syllabus in every subject including history.
I do not know much about the DNA either but the only thing which confuses me know is the the absence of the supposed Aryan genes in the Rakhigiri excavations. They show that people living in the areas around Sindhu Saraswati did not have the indo European Aryan genes, so how come the present North Indians n Pakistanis have it unless some mass migration did happen?
However prominent Archeologist and historian BB lal completely dismisses Aryan invasion/migration theory by his findings. Would try to read his book for more understanding. BB Lal was the one to find the painted gray pottery in the excavation cites which is the basis of date determination used by historians hence keeping his work as partial would be completely wrong
To add to it I wanted to discuss that Anu was one of the sons of Yayati,( grandson of Shukracharya), he moved westward to form his Kingdom and became the ruler of the Mallechhas . Now Ann or Anu is considered as one of the chief deities in earlier mesopotamian literature.
We know that Central Asians were Mallechhas for the Vedic people. Could this son of Anu be the one who moved further west to reach areas around Persia? Could he have some relations to the deity Anu? Historically worship of kings of ancient times has been a tendency in the world. Being the grandson of Shukracharya he might have actually tried to propogate Shukracharya's understanding of Dharma in his region(anti Vedas) and so that feature is evident in Avesta.
Could we dig deeper into this element?
Do we find any mention of Shukracharya in Avestan or Mesopotamian texts?
Yes I hope BJP government does get into some research on Dwarika city as well as on Ramsetu, but I guess they are reluctant because Ramsetu may actually turn out to be a natural structure (not manmade or made by Ram) and Dwarika might prove Krishna wasn't God something that will hit their ideology and vote bank harshly.
More importantly even if we find and prove that Aryan migration Theory is a myth, will western historians and world community accept it or would they claim us bias
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