~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 9

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Bhishma and Drona deserved punishment for being mute spectators, why didn't YUDI deserve punishment for -

1 Staking Draupadi

2 Not renouncing his claim on his brother

3 Not renouncing his claim on her

^^^^^

Fighting under Yudi's flag, they are killing Bhishma for being a mute spectator?

If Mute spectators deserved Death in war -

What about Dhritrashtra?

Nakul?

Sahdev?

People who didn't participate in the war?

Now, Is death during a war punishment for a Kshatriya?

People who participated in war died, Not people who wronged Draupadi

Draupadi's sons, brothers and father died too

__________________________________________________

About Arjuna not doing anything in the war, one has to read War Parvas to know that he was unwilling to KILL Bhishma and Drona, He didn't hesitate fighting against anyone else. The citation I have provided show him fighting Duryodhan and Karna by remembering what they did to Draupadi

Killing people on day 1 - Well why didn't Bhima kill Duryodhan on day 1? None would've died

War is not as easy as kill people on day 1

I didn't say that he didn't do anything ofcourse he did krishna was there was to make sure he does. But he DID hesitate a lot. He begged mercy for drona 14 15 days after war has already begun picked up fight with his CIC. When his topmost priority should have been to stand by all those soldiers who left their homes to come and fight for your cause least you can do is try and not break there trust. I am sorry there is absolutely no JUSTIFICATION for hesitating and begging mercy for a person from opposite team who clearly will not hesitate in finishing you off if he gets the opportunity For not standing by your wife s thought process even your empress sense of justice. Marriage demands support. He did not provide it

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Panchali was not a blood thirsty beast. SHE TRIED FOR PEACE. SHE TRIED FOR PEACE. It is duryodhan who refused to show any remorse. Read the citation on first page read the citation again on third page hearmeroar posted panchali says to krishna that they did try for peace but duryodhan refused to budge it was only after this that pandavas wanted krishna was sent and panchali tell him that such people who has no remorse whatsoever of what he did deserves punishment not begging. And arjuna was only reluctant to kill bhism and drona. Had he not hesitate so much and killed them the first opportunity he got bloodshed could have been avoided it was also his misplaced sense of loyalty to people who clearly did not deserve it. When the war has started and all their try for peace failed then what was the reason to hesitate he could have given his 100% and could have avoided all the bloodshed all the destruction it took them 10 days to kill bhism 10 days and 5 days for drona. Bhim killed the rest in some 3 days time. Had arjuna participate fully both of them together could have finished this in 5 days. But no sir has to beg mercy for people who did not deserve bhism and drona did not deserve as a prominent warrior of his side job was to stand by his soldiers who left everything to fight for them. But no sir was busy begging mercy for his "father figure" who clearly never cared for him

Panchali never wanted war for her personal gain. She talks about duties of a emperor empress. Citation on first page.

Yeah I know that, not saying Panchali wanted peace for her own gains or that she wanted to kill everyone. What I am saying is from the POV of BANS etc. I am not saying Panchali wanted blood while they didn't and making her the culprit.

My point is what could be avoided if war never happened. Technically all the bloodshed. Panchali may talk of the duty of an empress but there's nothing to prove Duryodhan was a bad king in fact people do say that he may have been better than Yudhishthir. Both did crimes, now if we are talking about good of people then however Duryodhan can be equally able, no?

It's not easy to kill your family members even if they are criminals. I am not saying they are right and Panchali wanted to kill them. I am just saying no matter what they did it's natural to feel this way. It's difficult for us to understand this because we perhaps didn't have to choose between wife and father figure. At the end they didn't say no and they did go for war. In fact Arjun was the only reluctant fighter, not the other 4 brothers AFAIK. He did hesitate yes. I am only saying it's harsh to say this alone is the reason to say he never cared for Panchali because he wasn't strong enough to take such a drastic step ie killing his family. His family maybe bloodthirsty beasts but his emotions came from years of growing up with them. To each his own here because this is not a fact debate but I think his weakness here should not be taken as he didnt care for panchali

Moreover, isn't it Yudhishthir who sent Krishna for peace? Did Bheem and Arjun have any say here even if they didn't want it? I maybe wrong I am asking here.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Yeah I know that, not saying Panchali wanted peace for her own gains or that she wanted to kill everyone. What I am saying is from the POV of BANS etc. I am not saying Panchali wanted blood while they didn't and making her the culprit.

My point is what could be avoided if war never happened. Technically all the bloodshed. Panchali may talk of the duty of an empress but there's nothing to prove Duryodhan was a bad king in fact people do say that he may have been better than Yudhishthir. Both did crimes, now if we are talking about good of people then however Duryodhan can be equally able, no?

It's not easy to kill your family members even if they are criminals. I am not saying they are right and Panchali wanted to kill them. I am just saying no matter what they did it's natural to feel this way. It's difficult for us to understand this because we perhaps didn't have to choose between wife and father figure. At the end they didn't say no and they did go for war. In fact Arjun was the only reluctant fighter, not the other 4 brothers AFAIK. He did hesitate yes. I am only saying it's harsh to say this alone is the reason to say he never cared for Panchali because he wasn't strong enough to take such a drastic step ie killing his family. His family maybe bloodthirsty beasts but his emotions came from years of growing up with them. To each his own here because this is not a fact debate but I think his weakness here should not be taken as he didnt care for panchali

Moreover, isn't it Yudhishthir who sent Krishna for peace? Did Bheem and Arjun have any say here even if they didn't want it? I maybe wrong I am asking here.

Actually before Krishna is sent there is whole lot of debate that happened. The situation was that they already sent a peace proposal through Sanjaya when the latter comes to pay them a visit. Duryodhan refused to budge it was only after this that debate begun with satyaki sahadev and drishtdyum supporting war since the opposite side clearly is not budging but yudhishtra bhim wanted krishna to try arjuna as usual was unsure as ever. That guy. 😆

It is then panchali talks to krishna about justice and repentance

About war what i feel is that as i said when even after trying so much the other party still wants war. When so much is at stake when all those soldiers have left their family behind to come and fight for your cause least you can do is Stand by them. I think arjuna failed in that respect

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

I didn't say that he didn't do anything ofcourse he did krishna was there was to make sure he does. But he DID hesitate a lot. He begged mercy for drona 14 15 days after war has already begun picked up fight with his CIC. When his topmost priority should have been to stand by all those soldiers who left their homes to come and fight for your cause least you can do is try and not break there trust. I am sorry there is absolutely no JUSTIFICATION for hesitating and begging mercy for a person from opposite team who clearly will not hesitate in finishing you off if he gets the opportunity For not standing by your wife s thought process even your empress sense of justice. Marriage demands support. He did not provide it

Arjuna was an unwilling participant when it came to killing Bhishma and Drona, everyone knew he wouldn't do it, why didn't they throw him out of the war?

I am saying it again Arjuna did not fight with Drishtdumya, He didn't even say anything, it was Yudi who asked him about noises coming from Kaurava side, He was emotional and vented out in that state of seeing his father figure dead

1 He did not pick up fight

2 He did not try to kill Drishtdumya

In fact Asswathama had invoked Narayana weapon after Drona's death and Arjuna was fighting to save his army -

Sanjaya said, "Beholding Bhimasena overwhelmed by that weapon, Dhananjaya, for baffling its energy, covered him with the Varuna weapon. In consequence of the lightness of Arjuna's arms, and owing also to the fiery force that shrouded Bhima, none could see that the latter had been covered with the Varuna weapon. Shrouded with the weapon of Drona's son, Bhima, his steeds, driver, and car became incapable of being gazed at, like a fire of blazing flame in the midst of another fire.

The driver of the Bhima's car having fallen into a swoon, the steeds, O king, began to fly away with great speed, in the very sight of all the bowmen. Beholding Bhima carried away from the field of battle by those running steeds, the unvanquished Aswatthaman joyfully blew his huge conch. Beholding Bhimasena borne away from the field, all the Panchalas, inspired with fear, abandoning the car of Dhrishtadyumna, fled away on every side. Then Drona's son, shooting his shafts fiercely, pursued those broken troops, causing a great carnage among them. Thus slaughtered in battle by the son of Drona, those Kshatriyas fled away in all directions from fear of that warrior

Sanjaya said, 'Beholding that force broken, Kunti's son, Dhananjaya, of immeasurable soul, proceeded against Aswatthaman from desire of slaying him. Those troops then, O king, rallied with effort by Govinda and Arjuna, stayed on the field of battle. Only Vibhatsu, supported by the Somakas and the Matsyas, shot his arrows at the Kauravas and checked their onset. 1

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07197.htm

He had an emotional moment, I don't think anything is wrong with having a breakdown seeing someone you love greatly dying. He continued to fight after Drona's death, it wasn't like he joined Kaurava army, he protected his army

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

How will begging mercy for drona some 14 15 days after war has already begun helped arjuna to stop mass scale destruction ?? War has already begun. I am not talking about his Intial hesitation but when the war has already started isn't it better to give your all help bhim to quickly complete it with much less bloodshed. ????

Yes I was talking about his words against war before the war began and the pre Geeta Gyan part. Not after he began war. Yes after war he should have given his best but i think krishna was unable to completely convince him i guess

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Bhishma and Drona deserved punishment for being mute spectators, why didn't YUDI deserve punishment for -

1 Staking Draupadi

2 Not renouncing his claim on his brother

3 Not renouncing his claim on her

^^^^^

Fighting under Yudi's flag, they are killing Bhishma for being a mute spectator?

If Mute spectators deserved Death in war -

What about Dhritrashtra?

Nakul?

Sahdev?

People who didn't participate in the war?

Now, Is death during a war punishment for a Kshatriya?

People who participated in war died, Not people who wronged Draupadi

Draupadi's sons, brothers and father died too

__________________________________________________

About Arjuna not doing anything in the war, one has to read War Parvas to know that he was unwilling to KILL Bhishma and Drona, He didn't hesitate fighting against anyone else. The citation I have provided show him fighting Duryodhan and Karna by remembering what they did to Draupadi

Killing people on day 1 - Well why didn't Bhima kill Duryodhan on day 1? None would've died

War is not as easy as kill people on day 1

Great post.

If killing mute spectators was the pointer to say Arjun cared then nobody cares because even Krishna didn't kill Yudhishthir. Duryodhan as a king as I said was not bad so why not kill him? Yudhishthir was the reason this happened - he staked her so nobody cares even Drau doesn't then.

Also we are behaving like Bhishma and Drona are little kids who can be killed in an hour. There are proper battles as per my reading I don't see how it's so easy. Virat War and Kurukshetra are not the same. No of people are more, battle techniques more advanced and also pre planned things happened not an angry fight in Virat.

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Actually before Krishna is sent there is whole lot of debate that happened. The situation was that they already sent a peace proposal through Sanjaya when the latter comes to pay them a visit. Duryodhan refused to budge it was only after this that debate begun with satyaki sahadev and drishtdyum supporting war since the opposite side clearly is not budging but yudhishtra bhim wanted krishna to try arjuna as usual was unsure as ever. That guy. 😆

It is then panchali talks to krishna about justice and repentance

About war what i feel is that as i said when even after trying so much the other party still wants war. When so much is at stake when all those soldiers have left their family behind to come and fight for your cause least you can do is Stand by them. I think arjuna failed in that respect

So she did want war and it's a little unfair to say she wanted it because she wanted good for the people and not anything related to her personal humiliation. It also decreases my respect because I would rather respect a woman who considers the crime against her a big one and wants the ones who did this to her punished. This isn't being bloodthirsty rather this is asking for fairness. If she didn't want them to he punished for what they did in dice hall but some emperor dharma then that changes my perspective of her. I always loved the Panchali who wanted war and justice for HERSELF.

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

I didn't say that he didn't do anything ofcourse he did krishna was there was to make sure he does. But he DID hesitate a lot. He begged mercy for drona 14 15 days after war has already begun picked up fight with his CIC. When his topmost priority should have been to stand by all those soldiers who left their homes to come and fight for your cause least you can do is try and not break there trust. I am sorry there is absolutely no JUSTIFICATION for hesitating and begging mercy for a person from opposite team who clearly will not hesitate in finishing you off if he gets the opportunity For not standing by your wife s thought process even your empress sense of justice. Marriage demands support. He did not provide it

I wonder why Krishna didn't do stuff himself? It's not like he didnt know Arjun's reluctance since way before war, even when Arjun hesitated in the beginning he gives big speeches to convince HIM and not do it himself. If he cared so much and his only reason to go to war was Panchali why not go himself and only step up when BHISHMA cannot be killed or Arjun was not working. Why not go first and not give any chance.

Also Drona did care for Arjun, not during war but definitely before war and it's not unnatural for Arjun to bad about Drona. Drona was partial and he went beyond ways to promote Arjuna in his ashram, infact this is stated the word partiality.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

So she did want war and it's a little unfair to say she wanted it because she wanted good for the people and not anything related to her personal humiliation. It also decreases my respect because I would rather respect a woman who considers the crime against her a big one and wants the ones who did this to her punished. This isn't being bloodthirsty rather this is asking for fairness. If she didn't want them to he punished for what they did in dice hall but some emperor dharma then that changes my perspective of her. I always loved the Panchali who wanted war and justice for HERSELF.

Justice is what she wanted she talks about that

Why will it decrease your respect ?? I did not find anything in the citation that would decrease respect a person who stands for justice and who always keeps het duty ahead deserves RESPECT not DISRESPECT or are we supposed to start respecting people who would rather beg to their tormentors than stand for what was right.

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Justice is what she wanted she talks about that

Why will it decrease your respect ?? I did not find anything in the citation that would decrease respect a person who stands for justice and who always keeps het duty ahead deserves RESPECT not DISRESPECT or are we supposed to start respecting people who would rather beg to their tormentors than stand for what was right.

No, you said that she wanted justice for people and not herself. That doesn't look desirable to me because people didn't get humiliated she did so she should stress on justice for herself not for her people or her empress dharma rn. U said she didn't want justice for personal gain but it's important to ask for justice for personal gain here because it is SHE WHO SUFFERED not Tom Dick and Harry