~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 3

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Panchali also demands justice only if there were no repentance

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05082.htm

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that intelligent lady, overwhelmed with woe and with eyes bathed in tears, said, 'O slayer of Madhu, it is known to thee, O thou of mighty arms, by what deceitful

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means, O righteous one, the son of Dhritarashtra with his counsellors robbed the Pandavas, O Janardana. of their happiness. Thou knowest also, O thou of Dasarha's race, what message was privately delivered to Sanjaya by the king. Thou hast also heard all that was said unto Sanjaya. O thou of great effulgence, these words were even these, 'Let only five villages be granted to us, viz., Avishthala, and Vrikasthala, and Makandi, and Varanavata, and for the fifth, any other,--O thou of mighty arms, O Kesava, even this was the message that was to have been delivered to Duryodhana and his counsellors. But, O Krishna, O thou of Dasarha's race, hearing those words of Yudhishthira, endued with modesty and anxious for peace, Suyodhana hath not acted according to them. If, O Krishna, Suyodhana desireth to make peace without surrendering the kingdom, there is no necessity of going thither for making such a peace. The Pandavas with the Srinjayas, O thou of mighty arms, are quite able to withstand the fierce Dhritarashtra host inflamed with rage. When they are no longer amenable to this arts of conciliation, it is not proper, O slayer of Madhu, that thou shouldst show them mercy

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I would include Arjuna because he was trying to keep everyone happy, including Panchali. I actually wouldn't include Bheema because though his natural inclination was toward Panchali, he showed no liking for his extended family for that to be the reason for his hesitation.

I posted this in the first page

Point of my post was that only character who were in team panchali 😆. Who felt and understood more about her need justice. Sahadeva easily did that. Bhim as you said had inclination towards panchali so probably he deserves more though i don't understand his need for begging forgiveness for duryodhan he asked krishna to tell duryodhan to forget everything idiot idiot that goes against panchali wanting justice and repentance so i did not include him. Arjuna though I don't get any indication from him that he wanted duryodhan to repent or anything. Sure he says he does not trust duryodhan but then also had he given back land without repentance and kept his part of deal. I don't think arjuna would have had any problems with it

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

I actually like her and Arjuna more for it. War isn't something to be entered into lightly. Diff is, Panchali was more aware of circumstances and knew conciliation wasn't possible.

Ofcourse war is serious thing. And i perfectly understand why people like panchal krishna kunti and sahadev had enough foresight to gauge their circumstance i understand arjuna s intial hesitation. Though he had three more brothers who had grown up without a father still had more clarity to do what is need of the hour.

Arjuna on the other hand was ready to pick fight with commander in Cheif if his army for a person whoo never spare a thought to him who didn't hesitate before killing his son who was completely loyal to opposite side. Bheem atleast knew that when it comes to war it either mar do ya maar jao all of the middle ground business is before it not during the war . Why why wil he rebuke drishtdyum like that. Cricket kehlne thodi gaye the

Apne hi side walo se jagda kaun karta h bhai

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Bhima?? On contray i feel Bhim deserves more than arjuna does

Point of my post was to only include people who were genuinely affected by drapaudi s plight. I did not include bhim so i did not see the point of including arjuna either

I am specifically talking about your quote and what led to it, it wasn't a single event, there was whole discussion before this event -

"Bhima said, 'Speak thou, O slayer of Madhu, in such a strain that there may be peace with the Kurus. Do not threaten them with war. Resenting everything, his wrath always excited, hostile to his own good and arrogant, Duryodhana should not be roughly addressed.

In the end of his speech Bhima added -

Even this is what I say. King Yudhishthira also approveth of this, and Arjuna too is averse to war, for there is great compassion in him.'"

Arjuna hadn't spoken in the hall, Bhima said this to tell Krishna that even his Friend Arjuna is against war

Then Krishna and Bhima have an argument, You can read it

But in the end of his argument with Bhima, Krishna added -

In case of war happening, I will certainly be the driver of Vibhatsu's car, for that, indeed, is Dhananjaya's wish and not that I myself am not desirous of fighting. It is for this that, hearing thee utter thy intention, I rekindled that thy energy, O Vrikodara.'"

It was to say that Arjuna is very much ready for the war, after this Arjuna spoke and said a whole page, I am posting his lines -

The accomplishment of our good is not, I believe, difficult for thee. If thou strivest, O Janardana, such is this act that it will be soon effected. As soon as thou goest thither, it will be accomplished. If, O hero, thou purposest to treat the evil-minded Duryodhana in any other way, that purpose of thine will be carried out exactly as thou wishest. Whether it be peace or war with the foe that thou wishest, any wish, O Krishna, that thon mayest entertain, will certainly be honoured by us.

You see Arjuna isn't saying anything clearly, not taking a side, not asking Krishna to speak to Duryodhana nicely, he left it up to Krishna

In the end he adds -

O Krishna, wishest to do for thy friends is scarcely strange, although it seems inexplicable how the object In view is capable of being effected by either mildness or its reverse. Or, if thou deemest their immediate destruction to be preferable, let it be effected soon without further deliberation. Surely, thou knowest how Draupadi was insulted in the midst of the assembly by Duryodhana of sinful soul and how also we bore it with patience. That Duryodhana, O Madhava, will behave with justice towards the Pandavas is what I cannot believe. Wise counsels will be lost on him like seed sown in a barren soil. Therefore, do without delay what thou, O thou of Vrishni race, thinkest to be proper and beneficial for the Pandavas, or what, indeed, should next be done.'"

He reminds Krishna about what happened to Draupadi and that he doesn't trust Duryodhana

The quote you provided was after these discussions and you can see Arjuna wasn't taking a side but he had left everything to Krishna telling him about what happened to Draupadi

On 17th day of war, Krishna asks him to tell the TRUTH and he says that he finds no happiness in fighting for Yudi, so he wasn't there for land, I won't say he was in the war for Draupadi, he was following Krishna, but when he encountered people who wronged Draupadi, he fought with the mind to get her Justice

Originally posted by: NoraSM

I am specifically talking about your quote and what led to it, it wasn't a single event, there was whole discussion before this event -

"Bhima said, 'Speak thou, O slayer of Madhu, in such a strain that there may be peace with the Kurus. Do not threaten them with war. Resenting everything, his wrath always excited, hostile to his own good and arrogant, Duryodhana should not be roughly addressed.

In the end of his speech Bhima added -

Even this is what I say. King Yudhishthira also approveth of this, and Arjuna too is averse to war, for there is great compassion in him.'"

Arjuna hadn't spoken in the hall, Bhima said this to tell Krishna that even his Friend Arjuna is against war

Then Krishna and Bhima have an argument, You can read it

But in the end of his argument with Bhima, Krishna added -

In case of war happening, I will certainly be the driver of Vibhatsu's car, for that, indeed, is Dhananjaya's wish and not that I myself am not desirous of fighting. It is for this that, hearing thee utter thy intention, I rekindled that thy energy, O Vrikodara.'"

It was to say that Arjuna is very much ready for the war, after this Arjuna spoke and said a whole page, I am posting his lines -

The accomplishment of our good is not, I believe, difficult for thee. If thou strivest, O Janardana, such is this act that it will be soon effected. As soon as thou goest thither, it will be accomplished. If, O hero, thou purposest to treat the evil-minded Duryodhana in any other way, that purpose of thine will be carried out exactly as thou wishest. Whether it be peace or war with the foe that thou wishest, any wish, O Krishna, that thon mayest entertain, will certainly be honoured by us.

You see Arjuna isn't saying anything clearly, not taking a side, not asking Krishna to speak to Duryodhana nicely, he left it up to Krishna

In the end he adds -

O Krishna, wishest to do for thy friends is scarcely strange, although it seems inexplicable how the object In view is capable of being effected by either mildness or its reverse. Or, if thou deemest their immediate destruction to be preferable, let it be effected soon without further deliberation. Surely, thou knowest how Draupadi was insulted in the midst of the assembly by Duryodhana of sinful soul and how also we bore it with patience. That Duryodhana, O Madhava, will behave with justice towards the Pandavas is what I cannot believe. Wise counsels will be lost on him like seed sown in a barren soil. Therefore, do without delay what thou, O thou of Vrishni race, thinkest to be proper and beneficial for the Pandavas, or what, indeed, should next be done.'"

He reminds Krishna about what happened to Draupadi and that he doesn't trust Duryodhana

The quote you provided was after these discussions and you can see Arjuna wasn't taking a side but he had left everything to Krishna telling him about what happened to Draupadi

In the end Krishna asks him to tell the TRUTH and he says that he finds no happiness in fighting for Yudi

I have read bhim arjuna s fight arjuna sadly was not clear on his stand. Everyone i have included at some point echoes panchali s thought process. What happened to panchali was important to them

In case of war happening, I will certainly be the driver of Vibhatsu's car, for that, indeed, is Dhananjaya's wish and not that I myself am not desirous of fighting. It is for this that, hearing thee utter thy intention, I rekindled that thy energy, O Vrikodara

This actually goes in favour of krishna who as he says is not unwilling to fight. Another point for him

Sadly in the need to please everyone Arjuna actually comes very unreliable. Plus his fight with drishtdyum on drona does not paints a very good picture of where he stands intial hesitation aside to actively pick fight with people who are on your side for someone who clearly never spared a thought to you. Who didn't hesitate to kill your son who did nothing to help your wife whose loyalty is clearly on the other side this was as bad as bhim asking krishna to request duryodhan to forget everything

Ok k will either include both bhim and arjuna or neither because to me they are at par when it came to caring about drapaudi

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

I have read bhim arjuna s fight arjuna sadly was not clear on his stand. Everyone i have included at some point echoes panchali s thought process. What happened to panchali was important to them

In case of war happening, I will certainly be the driver of Vibhatsu's car, for that, indeed, is Dhananjaya's wish and not that I myself am not desirous of fighting. It is for this that, hearing thee utter thy intention, I rekindled that thy energy, O Vrikodara

This actually goes in favour of krishna who as he says is not unwilling to fight. Another point for him

Sadly in the need to please everyone Arjuna actually comes very unreliable. Plus his fight with drishtdyum on drona does not paints a very good picture of where he stands intial hesitation aside to actively pick fight with people who are on your side for someone who clearly never spared a thought to you. Who didn't hesitate to kill your son who did nothing to help your wife whose loyalty is clearly on the other side this was as bad as bhim asking krishna to request duryodhan to forget everything

As I said I respect your opinion, I was giving the reason why I include him in the list

He was the one who actually supported Draupadi's claim in dice hall, I started liking him for this reason only, he didn't free himself there accepting Yudi's claim on himself, he supported Draupadi saying Yudi isn't her master after losing himself

Then all of the quotes, I have provided, I am not asking you to add him in your list

I keep saying this, Arjuna wasn't happy fighting for Yudi's kingdom, if he was fighting for land, he would have been happy that one more person between him and land is dead.

Drona was lesser culprit of Draupadi than Yudi, I don't understand this reasoning of killing Drona so Yudi can get kingdom

Arjuna fought people who wronged her by remembering what they did to her

And Arjuna didn't fight with Dristadyumna

But why are we assuming that had they got the land by peace, they would have sat satisfied.

They didn't have their army when the war happened. They fought Chedi, Maghadh, Matasya, South Kampilya, Yadav unit(Satyaki's) and others like Pandayas, Kekeyas etc. They had no money excluding what Dhristhdhyum or Drupad gave.

Maybe they wanted some standing before the war. They might have thought that they would try to regain their kingdom with peace talks and once received would strike at Hastinapur with huge blow

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Ok k will either include both bhim and arjuna or neither because to me they are at par when it came to caring about drapaudi

Both are in my list of people who cared about Draupadi

Sahdeva didn't do anything in dice hall but he supported Draupadi later and he is in the list

Bhima and Arjuna didn't equate war with justice for Draupadi, they did kill people who wronged her

Originally posted by: NoraSM

As I said I respect your opinion, I was giving the reason why I include him in the list

He was the one who actually supported Draupadi's claim in dice hall, I started liking him for this reason only, he didn't free himself there accepting Yudi's claim on himself, he supported Draupadi saying Yudi isn't her master after losing himself

Then all of the quotes, I have provided, I am not asking you to add him in your list

I keep saying this, Arjuna wasn't happy fighting for Yudi's kingdom, if he was fighting for land, he would have been happy that one more person between him and land is dead.

Drona was lesser culprit of Draupadi than Yudi, I don't understand this reasoning of killing Drona so Yudi can get kingdom

Arjuna fought people who wronged her by remembering what they did to her

And Arjuna didn't fight with Dristadyumna

He didn't say that Yudi doesn't have the right, he said after having lost himself did Yudi have right on Draupadi is something elders should decide. That is not actually saying that Yudi didn't have the right especially at a time when likes of Bheeshm had already said that they believe that Yudi can't do anything what is wrong.

I agree about the Drona part though

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Both are in my list of people who cared about Draupadi

Sahdeva didn't do anything in dice hall but he supported Draupadi later and he is in the list

Bhima and Arjuna didn't equate war with justice for Draupadi, they did kill people who wronged her

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