Mahabharat- The Epic: Sources, Variations, Discuss Here Only - Page 7

Originally posted by: riti4u

@amrita - if karn was part of drona gurukul and childhood friend of Duryodhana. Then why no one recognizes him at rangbhoomi as Jamy said his kavach and kundal were unique feature leaving the fact that he was a grown up man..his kavach and kundal could have revealed his identity..

Originally posted by: SweetRogue

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll refrain from posting large citations from Debroy's translation.

About nobody knowing who Karna is- in the citation I posted, Arjuna directly addresses Karna by name. I don't see Karna introducing himself before. So how does Arjuna know his name if he didn't already know who he was?

About Kripacharya not knowing Karna- perhaps because in the Adi parva it is clearly mentioned that Karna joined Drona's academy but there is no mention anywhere that he learned from Kripacharya. So Kripa may not have known or recognized him right away.

Dronacharya- If Karna stopped to ask Drona's permission why didn't Drona ask him to introduce himself? This was an exhibition and not a competition as far as I know. Why would Drona allow some random person to exhibit his skill? And even Kripacharya barges in only when the two get ready to duel. When he arrives Kripa formally introduces Arjuna and then asks Karna for his own introduction. Everyone in that assembly knew who Arjuna was, since Drona had already introduced him, yet was formally introduced by Kripa, this makes me think that the introduction was part of the dueling protocol. And even when Duryodhana gives Karna Anga he doesn't ask for his name. Granted that he was excited about finding Arjuna's competition but even Duryodhana couldn't be so rash as to bestow an entire kingdom over an unnamed stranger.These things make me think that the Princes and Drona, at least knew who he was.

Originally posted by: SweetRogue

About nobody knowing who Karna is- in the citation I posted, Arjuna directly addresses Karna by name. I don't see Karna introducing himself before. So how does Arjuna know his name if he didn't already know who he was?

About Kripacharya not knowing Karna- perhaps because in the Adi parva it is clearly mentioned that Karna joined Drona's academy but there is no mention anywhere that he learned from Kripacharya. So Kripa may not have known or recognized him right away.

Dronacharya- If Karna stopped to ask Drona's permission why didn't Drona ask him to introduce himself? This was an exhibition and not a competition as far as I know. Why would Drona allow some random person to exhibit his skill? And even Kripacharya barges in only when the two get ready to duel. When he arrives Kripa formally introduces Arjuna and then asks Karna for his own introduction. Everyone in that assembly knew who Arjuna was, since Drona had already introduced him, yet was formally introduced by Kripa, this makes me think that the introduction was part of the dueling protocol. And even when Duryodhana gives Karna Anga he doesn't ask for his name. Granted that he was excited about finding Arjuna's competition but even Duryodhana couldn't be so rash as to bestow an entire kingdom over an unnamed stranger.These things make me think that the Princes and Drona, at least knew who he was.

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

The fact that Arjuna call him Karna is itself an interpolation. His actual name is Vasusena , he was called Karna only after he donated his Kavach and Kundal.

Anyways I do believe Karna was part of Drona's gurukul hence showing that Drona refused to teach Karna is wrong.However he wasn't there for long .Because when RB ends at that time Yudi is in complete awe of Karna. If Karna was in Gurukul for long even Yudi and rest would know that there is some challenge to Arjuna in form of Karna .But Yudi seems completely surprised by Karna

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

So how can we justify Drona teaching Karna when he didn't teach Ekalavya who was superior to Karna?

As for Arjuna addressing Karna by name, Karna had come to be known as Karna and Vaikartana only after he cut away his armour. Until then he was only Vasushena or Sutaputra. How did Arjuna know what Karna would do that in future? Vaikartana also means 'son of Surya/Vikartana'. Karna is called Karna and Vaikartana in many occasions before he cut away his armour and Kunti revealed the truth to public. It could only be because the poet expected the readers to know the characters already and wrote as he thought.

Originally posted by: amritat

That's an excellent point Riti. A few years ago, I too believed the same as you do now. But then I observed a few things, and my mind slowly changed.

We are mostly stuck with the statement - "Everyone in the assembly wondered who he was..."

I feel that "everyone" is used in a generic way, and indicates the spectators. Note how, Drone did not even ask him who he was, and let him participate. Also, more importantly, note how Arjun addresses him right away as Karna, without the latter giving any introduction. How did Arjun know his name?

So, I do believe the relevant people knew who he was. It was only the spectators who did not. 😊

Originally posted by: amritat

I do have some reservation with the idea that Karna became Karna only after giving up his Kavach Kundal. This is bcoz, he is addressed throughout the epic as Karna, without or without Kavach Kundal. I understand that the story is composed later...but I feel the narrator wouldnt have made such a cardinal mistake there.

To be honest, it is easier for me to believe that the reason provided behind Karna's name is interpolation, rather than his whole participation with Duryodhan or his study at Drone's Gurukul.

Karna also means "ear" if I am not wrong. Was he named as such bcoz of his Kundalas? I cannot say, just guessing.

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

So how can we justify Drona teaching Karna when he didn't teach Ekalavya who was superior to Karna?

As for Arjuna addressing Karna by name, Karna had come to be known as Karna and Vaikartana only after he cut away his armour. Until then he was only Vasushena or Sutaputra. How did Arjuna know what Karna would do that in future? Vaikartana also means 'son of Surya/Vikartana'. Karna is called Karna and Vaikartana in many occasions before he cut away his armour and Kunti revealed the truth to public. It could only be because the poet expected the readers to know the characters already and wrote as he thought.

Originally posted by: riti4u

Well said..it made me read that part .. what wonders me is that why Karn's lineage was not known to them..karna was a charioteer son they came to know in that arena only. . so was karna in childhood only left his parents and went to drona.. and studied with princes of hastinapur.. considering they were princes were they allowed to study with or befriend any child whose origins were not known...