Mahabharat- The Epic: Sources, Variations, Discuss Here Only - Page 6

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Agni_Jytsona thumbnail
Posted: 6 years ago
#51
sorry for being ignornant but why should yudi be burdened by karna s death when he or arjun for that matter didnt even knew that he was their elder bro?? they were kept in dark from where i see they saw just a person from opposite team somebody who was great supporter of duri in all his doing and one of his wife s offenders why should a man be burdened by death of somebody who for him was always a member camp??
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
#52

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

sorry for being ignornant but why should yudi be burdened by karna s death when he or arjun for that matter didnt even knew that he was their elder bro?? they were kept in dark from where i see they saw just a person from opposite team somebody who was great supporter of duri in all his doing and one of his wife s offenders why should a man be burdened by death of somebody who for him was always a member camp??



What you said is right, but it is today's POV. In those days, it did matter. Moreover, they were royalties, not common people. Their status definitely depened on how common people saw them. It is still true, if we think about Princess Diana. In politics, no one can know what can be used against them. So to be on the safe side, they all try to pose themselves blemish-free even if there is no need to. We always see Mahabharata characters like us, but never as politicians who above everything had a status and public image to protect.
riti4u thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
#53
@Jamy - I felt Yudi was genuine in his outburst after karna 's death as also in a way if truth had come out earlier they cud have avoided destruction ..also he was their own blood who had pardoned their lives in battle..Also I guess if I am not wrong .Yudi is interested in knowing about his Brother more after this reveal.. he goes into some deep depression when arjin-bheem all wants him to come out of it and take the kingdom.. I need to find the quotation to support ..but I think I read it in KMG..
Agni_Jytsona thumbnail
Posted: 6 years ago
#54

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra



What you said is right, but it is today's POV. In those days, it did matter. Moreover, they were royalties, not common people. Their status definitely depened on how common people saw them. It is still true, if we think about Princess Diana. In politics, no one can know what can be used against them. So to be on the safe side, they all try to pose themselves blemish-free even if there is no need to. We always see Mahabharata characters like us, but never as politicians who above everything had a status and public image to protect.


i agree with you and this reminds of sita ji s case and what happened with her quiet similar in this case ram ji inorder to maintain the image of a king abonded her

but still i do think he did desevre punishment for drau s case maybe not death something else maybe whatever drau wanted
Edited by Poorabhforever - 6 years ago
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Posted: 6 years ago
#55
@Riti - you are right. But that was not an excuse for the public to believe otherwise, though Yudhi was genuinely sad for what happened. I mean, anyone who supported Suyodhana would never have believed Yudhi.
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Posted: 6 years ago
#56
@Poorabhforever - Original valmiki Ramayana ends when Rama returns Ayodhya with Sita and gets coronated as king. But I don't think we are allowed here to discuss on that any further. As for Draupadi, I am still in dilemma. I am still reading on it. For a start, you can google two articles, by MB scholars Pradip Bhattacharya and Satya Chaitanya. Just google 'was Draupadi ever disrobed?' and their names. They are well researched. People seem to have different opinions on this issue and I am yet to arrive on my own.
pd_am thumbnail
Posted: 6 years ago
#57
@all - Nice discussions. Very insightful thread. It would be nice to analyze different possibilities, alternatives about the great epic Mahabharata with different people.
@TM - Do you agree that Karna being Drona's student and a friend of Duryodhana's an effort on the part of composer or later editors to whitewash the Pandavas?
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
#58

Originally posted by: pd_am

@all - Nice discussions. Very insightful thread. It would be nice to analyze different possibilities, alternatives about the great epic Mahabharata with different people.

@TM - Do you agree that Karna being Drona's student and a friend of Duryodhana's an effort on the part of composer or later editors to whitewash the Pandavas?


There is no doubt that the Mahabharata is generally laudatory towards the Pandavas and tends to use glorifying adjectives for them. Part of this can be attributed to the fact that the epic is narrated to Janmejaya, great grandson of Arjun. So, the general tone has a tilt towards the Ps, particularly Arjun and Yudisthir.

One classic example can be seen in the House of Lac incident. Duryodhan's crime of conspiring to burn his cousins with their mother is given a lot of emphasis. But Pandavas' flying away leaving six bodies as a cover is mentioned only fleetingly. (KMG mentions the presence of the Nishada family was a mere co-incidence- "six of us will fly from here", but CE says that it was a deliberate attempt planned by Yudi to cover their tracks - "we will fly leaving six bodies here". I follow the Critical Edition).

Having said the above, I do not subscribe to the complete Inversion Theory. The epic, in many places, despite its supposed biased tone is actually quite frank about the various transgressions of the protagonists. Even the virtues of the antagonists that are relevant to the main plot are mentioned or hinted at, even if fleetingly. The unabridged text is filled with such gems which are capable of leaving us surprised!

So, I do believe Karna was very much part of Drone's Gurukul as stated in the text, and friend of Duryodhan from childhood.
riti4u thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
#59
@amrita - if karn was part of drona gurukul and childhood friend of Duryodhana. Then why no one recognizes him at rangbhoomi as Jamy said his kavach and kundal were unique feature leaving the fact that he was a grown up man..his kavach and kundal could have revealed his identity..
SweetRogue thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
#60

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra


So this is where we're supposed to discuss Jane Eyre' in 50 Shades of Grey' forum. 😆

@SweetRogue I think it is better to keep CE citations for only the most needed parts, in small quotes may be, not in big chunks. They might land in copyright violation as it is clearly stated in CE that we are not to use them without Debroy's & Penguin's permission.

Answer to your question. As I said earlier, this is a only cross examination of inconsistencies.


As far as we see in the book, the events related to Drona are - Drona lived close to Himalayas, learnt weapons from Parashurama, had a dispute with Drupada, came to HP, tricked the princes to get Bheeshma's attention, became their Guru, Karna came, Ekalavya was rejected, Drona denied Karna Brahmastra etc, Karna went to Parashurama, learnt it & returned, then we have Rangabhoomi events.

This means that Drona knew Karna before Rangabhoomi, as he was Drona's student.


Here is the problem.

1] Drona denied Ekalavya education as he was Nishada. He didn't accept Ekalavya as his student. From the order of different classes we saw in Manusmriti, Nishada was above Suta & was not even a pratiloma cast. When Drona denied education to Ekalavya, who was the prince of Nishadas, how did he accept Karna, who was technically still lower, and a low-born's son?

2] As stated in CE, in Rangabhoomi, when Karna comes, "Everyone in that assembly remained stationary and gazed at him steadfastly. They were filled with great curiosity and asked each other who he was. Had Karna been Drona's student, whether he later went to Parashurama by then or not, at least one person there would've recognised him and that alone would have prevented him from performing there. But no one did, not even Kripa who later questioned his birth. So no one there knew Karna before.

3] Again, CE says, "With Drona's permission, Karna, always eager to do battle and immensely strong, exhibited all that Partha had displayed before. Here Drona gave permission & Kripa didn't interfere. Because they didn't know he was a Suta putra. Had they known, they would not have allowed it.

4] Going by the book, it was difficult for anyone to miss Karna, not for his looks, but for his kavacha-kundala. Not even Kripa, who had been living in HP before Drona came, seem to recognize by that.

I think these are enough to prove that Drona had never seen Karna before. So it can be assumed that he never taught Karna anything.

A few more facts.

If we go by the ages in MB, Karna was quite elder to Yudhi. Yudhi came to HP when he was around 5 years, as we can assume from the course of events though no age is specified. Drona became a Guru after this only. Had Karna not began his education around 5 years, he would never have had the chance to learn, as it was customary for sons to follow their father's occupation as they grew up. So Karna must have begun learning long before Yudhi came to HP, when Drona still was not anyone's Guru.

Also, why should have Karna been sent to Drona, who was known to no one at that time and lived some 1500 km from Anga [Anga is in bihar now, Drona lived in today's uttarakhand], when the famous Parashurama lived some hundred kilometres away? [Mahendra parvata, where Parashurama lived, is the eastern end of Eastern Ghats]. Also, it is repeated many times that Karna was taught by Parashurama.


This is why I consider that Karna was not Drona's student. Karna is shown as his student possibly because the writers/editors/interpolators wanted to lessen the burden on Yudhi upon whose shoulders was the weight of killing his brother. So by showing Karna teaming up with Suyodhana since childhood and plotting against Pandavas, they wanted the readers to believe that it was not a bad thing to kill a brother who teamed up with wrong guys.


This is what I observed. Since it is based only on the facts found in the book, it will definitely change as I read more. So far, I haven't found anything that contradicted this observation.


Thanks for the suggestion. I'll refrain from posting large citations from Debroy's translation.

About nobody knowing who Karna is- in the citation I posted, Arjuna directly addresses Karna by name. I don't see Karna introducing himself before. So how does Arjuna know his name if he didn't already know who he was?
About Kripacharya not knowing Karna- perhaps because in the Adi parva it is clearly mentioned that Karna joined Drona's academy but there is no mention anywhere that he learned from Kripacharya. So Kripa may not have known or recognized him right away.
Dronacharya- If Karna stopped to ask Drona's permission why didn't Drona ask him to introduce himself? This was an exhibition and not a competition as far as I know. Why would Drona allow some random person to exhibit his skill? And even Kripacharya barges in only when the two get ready to duel. When he arrives Kripa formally introduces Arjuna and then asks Karna for his own introduction. Everyone in that assembly knew who Arjuna was, since Drona had already introduced him, yet was formally introduced by Kripa, this makes me think that the introduction was part of the dueling protocol. And even when Duryodhana gives Karna Anga he doesn't ask for his name. Granted that he was excited about finding Arjuna's competition but even Duryodhana couldn't be so rash as to bestow an entire kingdom over an unnamed stranger.These things make me think that the Princes and Drona, at least knew who he was.
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