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SweetRogue

@SweetRogue

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Posted: 6 years ago

#41

Karna's feats and his challenge to Arjuna :-

Supreme among those who are eloquent, the sun's son addressed his unrecognized brother, the son of Paka's punisher,17 in a voice that was as deep as the roar of the clouds. "O Partha! Before the eyes of these people, I will perform feats that will surpass everything that you have done. Don't be too amazed at what you have done. O supreme among those who are eloquent! No sooner had he uttered these words, than the spectators quickly stood up all at once, as if raised up by a single machine. O tiger among men! Duryodhana was greatly delighted. Bibhatsu was suddenly filled with anger and a sense of disgrace.

With Drona's permission, Karna, always eager to do battle and immensely strong, exhibited all that Partha had displayed before. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! Duryodhana and his brothers delightedly embraced Karna and said, "O mighty-armed hero! Welcome. Good fortune has brought you here. You know how to humble pride. I and the Kuru kingdom await your pleasure. Karna replied, "You have said it and that alone is enough. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! I only desire your friendship. And I desire to have a duel with Partha. Duryodhana replied, "O scourge of enemies! Enjoy all the pleasures with me. Do that which pleases your friends. Place your feet on the heads of all your enemies. At that, Partha considered that he had been insulted. He told Karna, who stood in the midst of the brothers like a mountain, "O Karna! When I have finished killing you, you will attain the worlds set aside for unwelcome intruders and uninvited speakers. Karna replied, "O Phalguni! This arena is meant for everyone and not for you alone. Dharma is that of strength and they are kings who are superior in valour. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! Altercations Altercations are nothing but the resort of the weak. Why use it? Speak with arrows, until my arrow carries off your head in your preceptor's presence. Partha, the conqueror of enemy cities, was embraced by his brothers. With Drona's permission, he advanced to fight. Thereupon, Karna was embraced by Duryodhana and his brothers. He picked up his bow and arrows and stood ready for battle.

Edited by SweetRogue - 6 years ago

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SweetRogue

@SweetRogue

Explorer

Posted: 6 years ago

#42

Originally posted by: amritat
SweetRogue:
One suggestion. Could you please make the citations in italics, and possibly in a different colour? Also add links from KMG?

Sorry, I have a bit of OCD when it comes to text formatting... 😆

Sure

Word Count: 1

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SweetRogue

@SweetRogue

Explorer

Posted: 6 years ago

#43

Kripacharya interferes. Karna's coronation. Bhima insults Karna. Contest ends.

When the two were ready and had raised their bows, Sharadvata Kripa, well versed in all aspects of dharma and skilled in the rules of duels, said, "This son of Pandu is Kunti's youngest son. He is a Kuru and will fight a duel with you. O mighty-armed hero! You should also tell us your mother, father and lineage and the royal dynasty of which you are the ornament. On knowing this, Partha will fight with you. Or he may not fight.22 At these words, Karna's face was flushed with shame. It looked as if a lotus had been faded and torn by showers of rain. Duryodhana said, "O preceptor! It is stated in the sacred texts that there are three ways to become a kingthrough noble birth, through valour and through leading an army. If Phalguni is unwilling to fight with someone who is not a king, I install him23 as king in the land of Anga. At that instant, the immensely powerful and fortunate maharatha Karna was instated in the kingdom of Anga, with roasted grains of rice, flowers, golden water pots and ritual chanting by those who knew the mantras. He was seated on a golden seat, an umbrella was held above him and whisks24 were waved at his side.

When the cries of "Victory had died down, the bull among kings told the Kourava,25 "What can I give you that is comparable to your gift of this kingdom? O king! O tiger among kings! Tell me and I will do your bidding. Suyodhana26 replied, "I wish for your eternal friendship. Having been thus addressed, Karna said, "So shall it be. Thereupon, they embraced each other in joy and were immensely happy.'

127

Vaishampayana said, At that moment, Adhiratha entered the arena, swaying on his feet and supporting himself on a staff. He was trembling and perspiring and his upper garments were in disarray. On seeing him, Karna discarded his bow. Out of regard for his father, he bowed down his head, still wet with water from the coronation. The charioteer quickly covered his feet with the end of his garment and addressed Karna, who had been crowned with success, as his son. Trembling with affection, he kissed him on the head and wet with his tears the head that was already damp with water from the instatement as the king of Anga. When Pandava Bhimasena saw him, he deduced that he27 was a charioteer's son and jeeringly said, "O son of a charioteer! You don't have the right to be killed by Partha in battle. You had better take up a whip, more befitting of your lineage. O worst of men! You have no right to enjoy the kingdom of Anga, just as a dog has no right to eat the cake that is offered at a sacrificial fire. At these words, Karna's lips quivered a little. He looked up at the sun in the sky and sighed.

The immensely strong Duryodhana arose angrily from among his brothers, like a mad elephant arises from a pond of lotuses. He told Bhimasena, of the terrible deeds, who stood there, "O Vrikodara! You should not speak these words. Strength is the most important virtue of Kshatriyas and even the most inferior of Kshatriyas deserves to be fought with. The sources of warriors and rivers are both the same; they are always unknown. The fire that covers the entire world arises from water. The vajra that destroyed danavas was made from Dadhichi's bones. It is said that the birth of the illustrious god Guha28 is a complete mystery. Some say he is the son of Agni, or of the Krittikas,29 or Rudra's son, or Ganga's. It is said that those who have been born Brahmanas have become Kshatriyas. Our preceptor was born in a water pot, Kripa in a clump of reeds. And we also know how all of you were born. Can a deer give birth to this tiger, equal to the sun, with natural armour and earrings and possessing all the auspicious marks? This lord of men deserves to be king, not only of Anga but of the entire world, through the valour of his arms and my obedience to him. If there is any man to whom my action seems condemnable, let him ascend his chariot, or on foot bend his bow. At this, a loud uproar arose in the arena, intermingled with cheers of applause. At that time, the sun went down.

King Duryodhana grasped Karna's hand and led him out of the arena, lit with the flames of myriad torches. O lord of the earth! With Drona, Kripa and Bhishma, the Pandavas also returned to their own homes. Everyone went to their respective houses. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! As they went away, some hailed Arjuna, some Karna and some Duryodhana. Kunti was also delighted out of affection for her son, because she recognized him from the various auspicious marks on his body, and he had become the king of Anga. O king! Having obtained Karna, Duryodhana quickly banished banished his fears arising out of Arjuna's skills. Skilled in use of arms, that warrior30 also gratified Suyodhana with sweet words. At that time, Yudhishthira also thought that there was no archer equal to Karna on earth.'

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SweetRogue

@SweetRogue

Explorer

Posted: 6 years ago

#44

These are from Debroy's translation of BORI CE. Corresponding links from KMG's translation here:-

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01137.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01138.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01139.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01140.htm

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vayuu1

@vayuu1

Beginner

Posted: 6 years ago

#45

Whom do you consider the most powerful warrior of Mahabharata, in kurukshetra war.

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amritat

@amritat

Sparkler

Posted: 6 years ago

#46

Originally posted by: vayuu1
Whom do you consider the most powerful warrior of Mahabharata, in kurukshetra war.

This is a question, I mostly like to evade to avoid controversies. 😆

My personal favourite is Bhishma, though going strictly by records of victories and losses, one can go for Arjun as well. Karna and Drone also qualify as formidable warriors.

So, my answer would be all 4. Bcoz, power of a warrior depends on multiple factors: count of defeats and victories, capability of opponents, etc. 100 victories against a weak enemy is not the same as 100 victories against formidable enemies. So, I'd say all four of them were fantastic in their own way.

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SweetRogue

@SweetRogue

Explorer

Posted: 6 years ago

#47

Originally posted by: vayuu1
Whom do you consider the most powerful warrior of Mahabharata, in kurukshetra war.

Considering the sheer number of warriors that took part in that war it's very difficult to answer this. It depends much on a personal preference too. I haven't really read the Kurukshetra war from beginning to end but aside from Arjuna, Bhishma, Drona, Karna, Bheema, Duryodhana etc. There are few others like Shalya, Satyaki, Bhurishrava, Ashwatthama, Kripacharya, Drishtadyumna etc. Who deserve mention. The younger generation like Abhimanyu, Upapandavas, Lakshmana and other sons of the Kauravas, Vrishasena and other sons of Karna, Ghatotkacha et. All. Held there own against many great warriors at a very young age. I dare say they would've surpassed the fame of their fathers had they lived.

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Adhya

@Agni_Jytsona

Sparkler

+ 11

Posted: 6 years ago

#48

why did arjuna insult yudi before his war with karna? was it because of gandhiv? did gandhiv held more value in arjuna s life than yudi?

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SweetRogue

@SweetRogue

Explorer

Posted: 6 years ago

#49

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever
why did arjuna insult yudi before his war with karna? was it because of gandhiv? did gandhiv held more value in arjuna s life than yudi?

Actually it was his oath to kill any person who insulted his Gandiv. So, he actually wanted to kill Yudhishtira but Krishna told him to insult his older brother instead as I sitting elders is like killing them.

My personal take:- as far as I know the Gandiv oath is never mentioned before. I think it was an argument between the two and the Gandiv thing was added later as a cover up. Keep in mind that Yudhishtir insulted Arjuna pretty horribly before A said anything, Y even went to the extent of saying that Arjuna should never have been born! Hearing such words from a man you have loved like a father, prioritiesed even above your own conscience and served all your life is bound to make any person furious.

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

Sparkler

+ 2

Posted: 6 years ago

#50

So this is where we're supposed to discuss Jane Eyre' in 50 Shades of Grey' forum.😆

@SweetRogue I think it is better to keep CE citations for only the most needed parts, in small quotes may be, not in big chunks. They might land in copyright violation as it is clearly stated in CE that we are not to use them without Debroy's & Penguin's permission.

Answer to your question. As I said earlier, this is a only cross examination of inconsistencies.

As far as we see in the book, the events related to Drona are - Drona lived close to Himalayas, learnt weapons from Parashurama, had a dispute with Drupada, came to HP, tricked the princes to get Bheeshma's attention, became their Guru, Karna came, Ekalavya was rejected, Drona denied Karna Brahmastra etc, Karna went to Parashurama, learnt it & returned, then we have Rangabhoomi events.

This means that Drona knew Karna before Rangabhoomi, as he was Drona's student.

Here is the problem.

1] Drona denied Ekalavya education as he was Nishada. He didn't accept Ekalavya as his student. From the order of different classes we saw in Manusmriti, Nishada was above Suta & was not even a pratiloma cast. When Drona denied education to Ekalavya, who was the prince of Nishadas, how did he accept Karna, who was technically still lower, and a low-born's son?

2] As stated in CE, in Rangabhoomi, when Karna comes, "Everyone in that assembly remained stationary and gazed at him steadfastly. They were filled with great curiosity and asked each other who he was. Had Karna been Drona's student, whether he later went to Parashurama by then or not, at least one person there would've recognised him and that alone would have prevented him from performing there. But no one did, not even Kripa who later questioned his birth. So no one there knew Karna before.

3] Again, CE says, "With Drona's permission, Karna, always eager to do battle and immensely strong, exhibited all that Partha had displayed before. Here Drona gave permission & Kripa didn't interfere. Because they didn't know he was a Suta putra. Had they known, they would not have allowed it.

4] Going by the book, it was difficult for anyone to miss Karna, not for his looks, but for his kavacha-kundala. Not even Kripa, who had been living in HP before Drona came, seem to recognize by that.

I think these are enough to prove that Drona had never seen Karna before. So it can be assumed that he never taught Karna anything.

A few more facts.

If we go by the ages in MB, Karna was quite elder to Yudhi. Yudhi came to HP when he was around 5 years, as we can assume from the course of events though no age is specified. Drona became a Guru after this only. Had Karna not began his education around 5 years, he would never have had the chance to learn, as it was customary for sons to follow their father's occupation as they grew up. So Karna must have begun learning long before Yudhi came to HP, when Drona still was not anyone's Guru.

Also, why should have Karna been sent to Drona, who was known to no one at that time and lived some 1500 km from Anga [Anga is in bihar now, Drona lived in today's uttarakhand], when the famous Parashurama lived some hundred kilometres away? [Mahendra parvata, where Parashurama lived, is the eastern end of Eastern Ghats]. Also, it is repeated many times that Karna was taught by Parashurama.

This is why I consider that Karna was not Drona's student. Karna is shown as his student possibly because the writers/editors/interpolators wanted to lessen the burden on Yudhi upon whose shoulders was the weight of killing his brother. So by showing Karna teaming up with Suyodhana since childhood and plotting against Pandavas, they wanted the readers to believe that it was not a bad thing to kill a brother who teamed up with wrong guys.

This is what I observed. Since it is based only on the facts found in the book, it will definitely change as I read more. So far, I haven't found anything that contradicted this observation.

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