Mahabharat- The Epic: Sources, Variations, Discuss Here Only - Page 27

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amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

@amritat - I can't be of any help because that is an area more puzzling and ambiguous than MBh itself. First one should conclude about the origin and development of classical languages, and from there pick up MBh. You might get some help from John Brockington, one of the honorary vice presidents of International Association for Sanskrit Studies, and Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit in The University of Edinburgh. He is the one who wrote about regional traditions as old as the canon. His research papers are not freely available. From what I know, foreign professors are very kind towards our queries. His contact is given in the below link.


Thanks a ton. 😊
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Posted: 5 years ago
Does anyone know about the mention of Bhanumati as Suyodhana's wife anywhere in MBh related literature? Let's exclude Indo MB or any tradition outside Indian subcontinent.
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Posted: 5 years ago


Anytime.👍🏼

Word Count: 1

amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago
I am not sure how the name Bhanumathi came into existence in Indian context. She is unnamed in CE, KMG as in Northern Recension. Not sure about Southern Recension. Surprisingly, Prof Nrishingho Prasad Bhaduri, famous Mahabharata scholar uses the name Bhanumati in his non-fictional commentaries on Mahabharata. If only the man was a little more reachable.
Outside this, I have heard of only two instances/references of Duryodhan's wife. One, where Gandhari compares her daughters-in-laws (not particularly Bhanu) irately with buffaloes. 🤢 This is from some Malayalam retelling IIRC.

Another story is the famous dice game story with Karna, where Karna holds her sari pallu...Dury comes in, rubies scatter but Dury doesnt suspect his friend or his wife. This story, as per my knowledge, originated in Kannada retelling of Mahabharata by Kumara Vyasa named Karnata Bharata Kathamanjari (Karnataka's Mahabharata) written in 15th Century AD. Either this, or in 14th Century Villi Bharatham in Tamil.

Language barrier and lack of materials in English regarding regional variations make it difficult to research, to be honest.
Edited by amritat - 5 years ago
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago
@amritat - thanks for the inputs. AFAIK, Bhanumati is not mentioned as Suyo's wife in SR as well. I yesterday found that an MB based Sanskrit play written around CE 650, Veni samharam, has Bhanumati as Suyo's wife. That is the oldest I could get in Indian context.
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

@amritat - thanks for the inputs. AFAIK, Bhanumati is not mentioned as Suyo's wife in SR as well. I yesterday found that an MB based Sanskrit play written around CE 650, Veni samharam, has Bhanumati as Suyo's wife. That is the oldest I could get in Indian context.


No mention.

Venisamhara (Braiding the Hair) is a Sanskrit play written in Pallava Period, probably around 800AD (could be 650 AD too, not sure) by a playwright named Bhatta Narayan. This play is also the source of Draupadi's blood-washing story, as per Alf Hiltebetel in Cult of Draupadi.
Edited by amritat - 5 years ago
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: amritat



No mention.

Venisamhara (Braiding the Hair) is a Sanskrit play written in Pallava Period, probably around 800AD (could be 650 AD too, not sure) by a playwright named Bhatta Narayan. This play is also the source of Draupadi's blood-washing story, as per Alf Hiltebetel in Cult of Draupadi.



Okay. I have a doubt. In Cult of Draupadi, is she mentioned by 'kankaja' or 'kanakaja' or any other similar name? If yes, is there a reason for such name?
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra



Okay. I have a doubt. In Cult of Draupadi, is she mentioned by 'kankaja' or 'kanakaja' or any other similar name? If yes, is there a reason for such name?


Let me check n get back to you.
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Posted: 5 years ago
Some time ago, I said I believed that the first dice game never happened. Here are a few more points that I noticed a couple of days ago. Eventhough it can at least be argued that Ks did not humiliate Draupadi, it cannot be convincingly argued that Draupadi did not lie to Krishna about being humiliated, unless it can be proved that Krishna was present in Dyuta Sabha. Kunti, as she spoke to Krishna before he went to meet Karna, recalled also that Draupadi was insulted right before Krishna's eyes and she reminded him of the same. That one reference IS something. So the ultimate question is why did Krishna do nothing to prevent Draupadi's humiliation? I am not really fond of Krishna or Yudhi or Suyo. But it seems only the best for every character's sake to discard the first game of dice and its associated events as one huge interpolation.


I wonder how Debroy failed to notice all these. Though Debroy spared Ramayana from being called a bollywood masala in his new translation of Ramayana CE, he repeated his claim of Mahabharata's events happening before Ramayana's. I don't see the point. For instance, I don't remember anyone in MB war fighting with trees and all... And Debroy seems to believe that the monkeys and apes of Ramayana were really monkeys and apes. At least it looked so from his preface of Ramayana. How could these monkeys talk human language? If MB happened before, why these monkeys didn't appear in MB war? The war might have been much smaller, but kingdoms as far as Kerala took part in it.


So is his claim of Virata war being the actual war. Vyasa must then have been a fool for making Pandavas kill Kauravas by cheating. After all, it was a Pandava heir that continued Kuru dynasty. How would that king have taken such baseless blames on his otherwise faultless ancestors?


As for Arjuna & twins being later additions, I must read more...
Edited by Brahmaputra - 5 years ago
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

Some time ago, I said I believed that the first dice game never happened. Here are a few more points that I noticed a couple of days ago. Eventhough it can at least be argued that Ks did not humiliate Draupadi, it cannot be convincingly argued that Draupadi did not lie to Krishna about being humiliated, unless it can be proved that Krishna was present in Dyuta Sabha. Kunti, as she spoke to Krishna before he went to meet Karna, recalled also that Draupadi was insulted right before Krishna's eyes and she reminded him of the same. That one reference IS something. So the ultimate question is why did Krishna do nothing to prevent Draupadi's humiliation? I am not really fond of Krishna or Yudhi or Suyo. But it seems only the best for every character's sake to discard the first game of dice and its associated events as one huge interpolation.


I wonder how Debroy failed to notice all these. Though Debroy spared Ramayana from being called a bollywood masala in his new translation of Ramayana CE, he repeated his claim of Mahabharata's events happening before Ramayana's. I don't see the point. For instance, I don't remember anyone in MB war fighting with trees and all... And Debroy seems to believe that the monkeys and apes of Ramayana were really monkeys and apes. At least it looked so from his preface of Ramayana. How could these monkeys talk human language? If MB happened before, why these monkeys didn't appear in MB war? The war might have been much smaller, but kingdoms as far as Kerala took part in it.


So is his claim of Virata war being the actual war. Vyasa must then have been a fool for making Pandavas kill Kauravas by cheating. After all, it was a Pandava heir that continued Kuru dynasty. How would that king have taken such baseless blames on his otherwise faultless ancestors?

As for Arjuna & twins being later additions, I must read more...


I agree Debroy's claims are haphazard. Some of it could even be plain outrageous. Arjun being an interpolation is a big claim, bcoz we find his name even in Panini's work. So, unless Debroy has the guts to publish his paper on Arjun, his claim is mostly a theory, and nothing else.
Coming to Ramayan being newer, that claim is not Debroy's invention. There have been plenty of others too who suggested the same. You may google it.
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Now, coming to dice-game, I would have to read up the references again that you pointed out. But the part in bold kind of makes me uncomfortable. I am all for image clean-up, but not to this extent.

About the part in italics- I would disagree here. There is far more evidence in Draupadi's words than in the claim that Ks did nothing wrong. Even Duryodhan said (mockingly) "Remember the time Draupadi was molested. Be a man." when he sent back the peace proposal of the Pandavas calling them 'sesame seeds without kernel' in CE (Udyog Parva, Section 55, Part 821).

Another thing to observe is, Draupadi did say - Krishna, even you were not there to protect me. To which Krishna replies, I was stuck bcoz Shalwa attacked.

Lying can be done about things which happen in private or to someone in private. It is diificult to lie in front of many people about something that took place infront of so many people.

I dont mind Draupadi being a liar, honestly. But if that is indeed the case, then she would turn out to be the most influential human in entire Mahabharata. Coz, she lied about such a big thing and managed to convince Krishna, Panchals, Balram, Shalya n everyone else without getting caught! In fact, her lying was so damn influential that even Duryodhan gets convinced that they molested her, despite being innocent! Now, that's some talent. 😆
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In my opinion, if first dice-game is a lie/interpolation, then it serves neither Krishna nor Draupadi nor Duryodhan as you seem to suggest. It only helps Yudisthir. And of course, Karna.


Edited by amritat - 5 years ago
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