..::Doubts & Discussions about Historical facts::.. - Page 74

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Sweet_Krishna thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
I have dug into Jahangirnama which does not say that Salim was Harka bai's son.

Excerpts from Tuzk-e-Jahangiri:

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/main?url=pf%3Ffile%3D11001080%26ct%3D0

As the reality of the loyalty of my father's servants had not yet become apparent, and certain faults and errors and unbecoming intentions which were not approved at the throne of the Creator or pleasing to His creatures had shown themselves, they of themselves became ashamed. Though on the day of my accession I had forgiven all offences and determined with myself that I would exact no retribution for past deeds, yet on account of the suspicion that had been aroused in my mind about them I considered the Amru-l-umar my guardian and protector; although God Almighty is the guardian of all His servants, and is especially so of kings, because their existence is the cause of the contentment of the world. His father, Abdu--amad, who in the art of painting had no equal in the age, had obtained from the late king (Jannat-shyn) Humyn the title of Shrn-qalam (Sweet pen), and in his council had attained a great dignity and was on intimate terms with him (the king). He was one of the chief men of Shrz. My honoured father, on account of his former services, paid him great honour and reverence. I made Raja Mn Singh" who was one of the greatest and most trusted noblemen of my father, and had obtained alliances with this illustrious family, inasmuch as his aunt had been in my father's house (i.e. was his wife),* and I had married his sister, and Khusrau and his sister Sulnu-n-nis Begam, the latter of whom is my eldest child, were born of her"as before, ruler of the province of Bengal. Though as in consequence of certain of his acts he had no expectation of this favour towards himself, I dignified him with a chrqab (vest without sleeves) as a robe of honour, a jewelled sword, and one of my own horses, and sent him off to his province, which is a place of (or can keep up) 50,000 horse. His father was Raja Bhagwn Ds. His grandfather, Raja Bihr Mal, was the first of the Kachwha Rjpts to have the honour of entering my father's service, and he excelled his tribe in truth and sincerity of friendship, and in the quality of valour.

Jahangir never says that Harka bai was his mother, otherwise surely he would have mentioned her as his mother in this excerpt when he introduces Man singh's Aunt as his father's wife. He does mention Man Singh's sister as his wife. My question is how can Man Singh allow his sister to marry their cousin in this Jodha Akbar serial? Even though Salim followed Islam, as per the show Man singh and his sister were his first cousins and Kachhwahas could not have allowed that. If this marriage happened for real as is evident from Jahangirnama, it could have happened in one instance that is if Jahangir was not born of Harka Bai.
Donjas thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago

Originally posted by: Sweet_Krishna

I have dug into Jahangirnama which does not say that Salim was Harka bai's son.

Excerpts from Tuzk-e-Jahangiri:

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/main?url=pf%3Ffile%3D11001080%26ct%3D0

As the reality of the loyalty of my father's servants had not yet become apparent, and certain faults and errors and unbecoming intentions which were not approved at the throne of the Creator or pleasing to His creatures had shown themselves, they of themselves became ashamed. Though on the day of my accession I had forgiven all offences and determined with myself that I would exact no retribution for past deeds, yet on account of the suspicion that had been aroused in my mind about them I considered the Amru-l-umar my guardian and protector; although God Almighty is the guardian of all His servants, and is especially so of kings, because their existence is the cause of the contentment of the world. His father, Abdu--amad, who in the art of painting had no equal in the age, had obtained from the late king (Jannat-shyn) Humyn the title of Shrn-qalam (Sweet pen), and in his council had attained a great dignity and was on intimate terms with him (the king). He was one of the chief men of Shrz. My honoured father, on account of his former services, paid him great honour and reverence. I made Raja Mn Singh" who was one of the greatest and most trusted noblemen of my father, and had obtained alliances with this illustrious family, inasmuch as his aunt had been in my father's house (i.e. was his wife),* and I had married his sister, and Khusrau and his sister Sulnu-n-nis Begam, the latter of whom is my eldest child, were born of her"as before, ruler of the province of Bengal. Though as in consequence of certain of his acts he had no expectation of this favour towards himself, I dignified him with a chrqab (vest without sleeves) as a robe of honour, a jewelled sword, and one of my own horses, and sent him off to his province, which is a place of (or can keep up) 50,000 horse. His father was Raja Bhagwn Ds. His grandfather, Raja Bihr Mal, was the first of the Kachwha Rjpts to have the honour of entering my father's service, and he excelled his tribe in truth and sincerity of friendship, and in the quality of valour.

Jahangir never says that Harka bai was his mother, otherwise surely he would have mentioned her as his mother in this excerpt when he introduces Man singh's Aunt as his father's wife. He does mention Man Singh's sister as his wife. My question is how can Man Singh allow his sister to marry their cousin in this Jodha Akbar serial? Even though Salim followed Islam, as per the show Man singh and his sister were his first cousins and Kachhwahas could not have allowed that. If this marriage happened for real as is evident from Jahangirnama, it could have happened in one instance that is if Jahangir was not born of Harka Bai.


I had the very same doubts as you in the beginning. Jahangir's accounts have to be taken with a pinch of salt because there are some contradictions. Even then, one should not compare the modern style of writing with the antiquated style that Jahangir uses. He is recounting a series of facts in a somewhat disjointed manner. We should not assume that just because he left out certain facts, like Harka being his mother, that those facts are not true.

There are other very strong indications to suggest Harka Bai was Marium Uz Zamani and the House of Amer had a very important influence on Akbar's life and rule.

As for cousins marriage, another thing which intrigued me, I learnt that in Islam it is allowed. It is also permitted in certain Hindu society. I also learned that in ancient societies, this marriage of close relatives was sometimes preferred to preserve the purity of royal blood.

As to why Jahangir did not dwell too much on the lineage of his mother, I believe the reason could have been either, a promise of secrecy or because he was facing a lot of opposition to his rule around that period. There was an anti reaction to the liberal policies of Akbar, fundamentalists were striking back. At this point to celebrate his Amer ancestry( and remember Man Singh sided with Khusrau in the battle of succession) would not have been prudent.
Edited by Donjas - 9 years ago
history_geek thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0

Abhay

Thanks for the awesome twin posts :) They cover all the key historical milestones from Babur to Akbar's time. I read them and loved them - going to read them a few times more :)

I esp LOVED Dr.Lal's description of MUZ and her status in the Mughal court/palace. 👏 And Akbar's horoscope - which indicated the advent of HK in his life and with that, lots of kids and grandkids :))

Also liked the detailed map of Rajasthan :)

You have obviously spent a lot of effort in writing these posts - thank you so much! :)



Welcome Radhika. :)
Thanks for your views..!


history_geek thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago

Originally posted by: SindhuMenon



Totally agree with you Radhika.

Abhay, thank u so much for this superlative post ...I just got a chance to read the posts and loved it..



I am glad you enjoyed reading it Sindhu. :)


Sweet_Krishna thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago

Originally posted by: shipreeta


But if cousin marriage was not common in Kshtriyas, how come Man Bai's father agree for this? This serial actually shows Man's crush on Salim, if cousin marriage was not common, how did she even think on these lines.

As far as I know in ancient times marriage of cross cousins (children of a brother and a sister, not children of two sisters or two brothers) were allowed (examples being Arjun Subhadra, Gautama Budhha aka Sidhhratha and Yashodara, and their ancestors) possibly this practice was still prevalent during Salim's time



Cross cousin marriages in north Indian hindu kshatriyas was very rare and was mostly limited to very few clans. Yadavas did practice cross cousin marriage that is why Subhadra Arjun marriage was possible and Shakyas( Gautam Buddha clan) too were inbred because they wanted to have pure blood line.Except few clans like these others married out of pinda and gothra.
Rajputs as far as I have read in the history were not inbred. Cousin marriage is taboo in Rajasthan.
In his memoirs, Jahangir has no qualms in telling he got married to Rajput women, why would he hide that his mother was Harka Bai.
Sweet_Krishna thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
I do not buy this "fundamentalist" appeasing thing of Jahangir which could have made him to subdue details of his mother. He mentions marriages to Rajput ladies of Amer and Jodhpur in his memoirs, why would he leave out mentioning his mother being a Rajput?
Edited by Sweet_Krishna - 9 years ago
history_geek thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago


Topic

Who was mother of Jahangir.??. Why do we stop at Jahangir Namas for every information instead of going to many other sources and trying to Dig more..!.




The translated memoirs of Jahangir have to be taken with a pinch of Salt...

A lot depends on the language used by the translator also...


His memoirs have been translated by Beveridge in 1909 and same have been translated by Thackston after 90 years in 1999...The difference is visible...For same Persian text both the translators use slightly different type of English references..


If i am translating some thing from one language to another, some essence is surely missed..!!!


As for Jahangir's memoirs > There are multiple versions present and till date i have been trying to know why a person will write multiple Conflicting memoirs..

Till now i have got 5 versions...

Let me also tell that in Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri (Persian Text, Hyderabad House, photocopy of which is present in Aligarh Muslim University, Aligarh).

It says Nur Jahan was mother of Khurram...
And at another place in the same Jodh Bai was mother of Khurram... 😉

So, going by this statement i can well argue that Jagat Gosain was not mother of Khurram.
Isn't it ?


Why in same Tuzuk i Jahangiri, different mothers are mentioned for same person..😕... Till now different versions of Jahangirnamas mentioned different mothers.

But in case of Khurram, the SAME BOOK mentions 2 different mothers..!!!!!



I don't want to create a controversy, but if needed the controversy can be very well created on Khurram's mother name also if i cite Jahangirnama as the reference..


These memoirs are to be taken with a pinch of salt especially in the case of motherhood..
These are NOT the only documents to ascertain a fact...

There is a lot of wealth of documents present, provided one is ready to search.!


There is no big deal that Jahangir memoirs do not contain name of mother..
And we do not know the Full-Proof reasons why the name is not present.!


In Tuzuk he calls his father as "My August Father" and his mother as "My Kind Mother" ...

He rarely used the name of Akbar calling him as father by name, but we all know that he was his father..Same case for mother.. Not using the name does not mean that the person was not his father or mother...

Mountain of a mole hill has been made by some authorities who are hell bent at proving MUZ was not Jahangir's mother...


And as far as the proof of mother of Jahangir is concerned...

It is given in HER farman it self.

Plz see this farman.






This is Farman of Mariam-Uz-Zamani, and this farman calls her Walida of Nur ud din Jahangir Padshah.

The very second line..!

This proof was given by SAI Tirmizi, Deputy Director of Historical Archives(1974), Govt. of India in his book..


There is NO DOUBT about mother of Jahangir except some
articles in Times Of India or Hindustan Times, most of which were published during the time of Jodha Akbar movie . !

I had to make a post on this farman, but mentioning it here beforehand.. As it seems there is doubt over identity of mother of Jahangir..


RadhikaS0 thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
Abhay
I agree with what you wrote above regarding mother of Jahangir. :)

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