Atrocities against minorities in Pak & Bangladesh - Page 8

Originally posted by: Vr15h

So what is the something? What has this govt done for Hindus? Forget foreign Hindus in Pakistan, Bangladesh, California, Leicester.... what has he done for Hindus in India?

It has given the freedom to Hindu voice. Hindus can stand and speak for themselves unlike before. Hindus are shedding the Nehruvian secularism and feeling pride in their Hindu identity unlike the apologetic attitude in Congress times. That in my opinion is the biggest thing BJP governance has done for Hindus.

Ofcourse the government has done many things but they are not specifically for the appeasement of Hindus but for the benefit of all communities and I like it that way. 👍

Originally posted by: NathuPaapi

It has given the freedom to Hindu voice. Hindus can stand and speak for themselves unlike before. Hindus are shedding the Nehruvian secularism and feeling pride in their Hindu identity unlike the apologetic attitude in Congress times. That in my opinion is the biggest thing BJP governance has done for Hindus.

Ofcourse the government has done many things but they are not specifically for the appeasement of Hindus but for the benefit of all communities and I like it that way. 👍

Has it really been govt, though? I trace this back to 1992, when we demolished the Babri. Yeah, there were ups & downs since, but while Hindus did start to more openly take pride in our faith, the BJP's faith is not Hindutva but nationalism. I'd give the credit for this mostly to Bal Thackeray: he was the one who coined the "गर्व से कहो हम हिन्दू है" slogan, while Advani kept insisting that India is secular b'cos it's Hindu, Murli Manohar Joshi said that Indian muslims & Christians are mohammediya & Christi Hindus. Drivel of that sort

JP Nadda himself is on record as saying that, you have the "Bharat mata" myth where a likeness of Ma Durga is stripped of her trishul which is substituted by an Indian tricolor. I'll give you that the first 5 years of Modi were good, b'cos muslims were apprehensive about what might happen to them and didn't act up. But ever since Shaheen Bagh and the WB elections, this govt has looked increasingly supine

Constitutionally, the govt can't do anything just for Hindus, sans an amendment, but it still has some 300+ schemes for muslims. This is not propaganda from any Modi-haters out there, but rather material from the Ministry of Minority Affairs itself, as well as BJP outreach literature going out to muslims, that they hope Hindus don't notice, or if they do, don't object to. There are temple funds diverted to haj houses & other secular endeavors

Originally posted by: Vr15h

Has it really been govt, though? I trace this back to 1992, when we demolished the Babri. Yeah, there were ups & downs since, but while Hindus did start to more openly take pride in our faith, the BJP's faith is not Hindutva but nationalism. I'd give the credit for this mostly to Bal Thackeray: he was the one who coined the "गर्व से कहो हम हिन्दू है" slogan, while Advani kept insisting that India is secular b'cos it's Hindu, Murli Manohar Joshi said that Indian muslims & Christians are mohammediya & Christi Hindus. Drivel of that sort

JP Nadda himself is on record as saying that, you have the "Bharat mata" myth where a likeness of Ma Durga is stripped of her trishul which is substituted by an Indian tricolor. I'll give you that the first 5 years of Modi were good, b'cos muslims were apprehensive about what might happen to them and didn't act up. But ever since Shaheen Bagh and the WB elections, this govt has looked increasingly supine

Constitutionally, the govt can't do anything just for Hindus, sans an amendment, but it still has some 300+ schemes for muslims. This is not propaganda from any Modi-haters out there, but rather material from the Ministry of Minority Affairs itself, as well as BJP outreach literature going out to muslims, that they hope Hindus don't notice, or if they do, don't object to. There are temple funds diverted to haj houses & other secular endeavors

Yes BJP and Kalyan Singh government did allow Hindu voice and not suppress it brutally like Mulayam Singh Yadav or congress (in 1992).

Anyways we have both already made up our mind so let's just agree to disagree or this will drag on to pages

There were decades when we didnt even know Hindus existed in Pakistan n Bangladesh. Reading school textbooks, I always thought that Pakistan had all muslims who migrated from India during partition and same with Bangladesh by default. Never knew there were so many Hindus there after partition ..and so many ancient temples. And all this was wiped out in the decades when we were ignorant.

Aaj pata to chal raha hai ki wahan ye hua hai aur ho raha hai. And today we have CAA which enables them to live in India. Thats a bigger step than mere lip service..took time, will probably take some more time but coming gens wont have to face extinction of their faith.

And never forget that for years we were made to feel ashamed of Babri Masjid demolition. We were shamed for being Hindus and Indians. They try the same today also but there r people who give back. When they talk about Masjid demolition we know it was constructed at a temple site. And not just Indians, even non Indians know and speak up.
Bala Saheb himself was a proud Hindu no doubt..but there was so much negative press about Shiv Sena all the time. We were made to believe it was n extortion party..not something to be proud of.

Its today that we r back to our roots. Not extreme, but empathetic..not communal but neither submissive nor apologetic. and really proud of our Faith and our Nation

Originally posted by: Kyahikahoon

There were decades when we didnt even know Hindus existed in Pakistan n Bangladesh. Reading school textbooks, I always thought that Pakistan had all muslims who migrated from India during partition and same with Bangladesh by default. Never knew there were so many Hindus there after partition ..and so many ancient temples. And all this was wiped out in the decades when we were ignorant.

Aaj pata to chal raha hai ki wahan ye hua hai aur ho raha hai. And today we have CAA which enables them to live in India. Thats a bigger step than mere lip service..took time, will probably take some more time but coming gens wont have to face extinction of their faith.

And never forget that for years we were made to feel ashamed of Babri Masjid demolition. We were shamed for being Hindus and Indians. They try the same today also but there r people who give back. When they talk about Masjid demolition we know it was constructed at a temple site. And not just Indians, even non Indians know and speak up.
Bala Saheb himself was a proud Hindu no doubt..but there was so much negative press about Shiv Sena all the time. We were made to believe it was n extortion party..not something to be proud of.

Its today that we r back to our roots. Not extreme, but empathetic..not communal but neither submissive nor apologetic. and really proud of our Faith and our Nation

I always knew that there were Hindus in Pakistan & Bangladesh. I studied & lived in the US since 1992, although I'm right now in India for a bit. In 1995, I had a colleague at work who was a Bangladeshi Hindu, and he told me how as a kid, muslim classmates used to try to get him to recite the kalma, which he determinedly refused. In Kolkata, I heard from ex-Bangladeshi Hindus how persecution is going on there. What we are seeing today is nothing new: it probably started when Ershad declared Bangladesh an islamic republic. May he RIH

As far as Pakistan goes, I know that Dr Omendra Ratnu & Jai Ahuja both founded an NGO called Nimitekkam, which helps settle Paki Hindus in India by pairing them w/ people of their castes. Both of them are supportive of the BJP, which is their call, but the BJP has been dragging its feet on CAA, and only finalized the rules some weeks ago to coincide w/ the Supreme Court order on Electoral bonds. Anyway, even CAA only protects 🇵🇰🇦🇫🇧🇩 Hindus who have been here before 2014! If they have been here since, the wait is still 11 years, rather than 5. Much of this has been discussed in the CAA thread

When we were celebrating the Ayodhya inauguration on IF (it was not a pran-pratistha according to the Shankaracharyas), I didn't wanna rain on that parade, so didn't say anything there. But the fact remains that the Sangh Parivar was against the demolition of the Babri, and their volunteers were there to protect it. There was a fascinating interview w/ Santosh Dubey & Ravi Shankar, 2 of the men who organized the demolition, and they had fascinating things to say about the operation. Yeah, there were all those commissions investigating the demolition, & they cleared the RSS/BJP/VHP of it, and they happened to be right. This operation was a Shiv Sena operation, as Balasaheb-dada later owned, and Santosh Dubey was (maybe still is?) a member of the Shiv Sena. Oh, & major revelation from that interview: Dubey-ji had a meeting w/ PM PVNR, who gave him all the tools & accessories he needed, and 5 hours to finish the job. Dubey-ji described how he & his men went about it

I remember the day the Babri demolition happened. I was a student in the US, & my roommate, who shared my views on muslims, came back home & excitedly told me that the Babri had been demolished. Within the local Indian student community there, we were split 50/50, but that didn't stop me. I got active on Usenet, which was the internet based newsgroup bulletins that we had at the time, & was one of those defending the demolition & combating muslims. This was a decade before I discovered Robert Spencer & Jihadwatch

Also, one forgets that after the Babri demolition, India was roundedly condemned by the OIC, and Hindus as well as their temples were attacked in both Pakistan and Bangladesh. It was after this that PVNR resumed diplomatic relations w/ Israel, which Indira Gandhi had cut off in 1983 in response to the Israeli war in Lebanon. All those decades of supporting the PLO were proven stupid, since there was no gratitude from the Arabs for this support. Like Hugh Fitzgerald at Jihadwatch noted, muslim loyalties can never be bought, only rented

Another thing - I never got why the Sangh Parivar were at so much pains to prove that Babri wasn't a mosque, or that no namaz took place there. BFD! Even if namaz did happen there, it was built on stolen property, & so deserved to be demolished, as would be Gyanvapi, Shahi Idgah and some 40,000 other mosques in the country that were built over temples. These days, whenever a muslim commits some atrocity, their property is destroyed by either "Bulldozer Baba" or his imitators, & the explanation given is that it was illegally built on stolen land. The same applies here as well eg Quwaat ul Islam mosque in Delhi, which was built by demolishing 27 Vaishnav & Jain temples. We should be unapologetic about reclaiming them, even if it means demolishing mosques. And no Virginia, you don't get to drag on court cases for another 50 years

As far as Balasaheb goes, I used to be supportive of his Hindutva, but opposed to "आमची मुंबई मराठी मुंबई" campaign. But listening to a speech a year ago by Raj Thackeray, I retrospectively agree w/ him. There is no way any city, or even state in India can accommodate all of India's population, or even a bulk, simply b'cos other states like Bengal or Bihar are badly managed. The solution lies in changing the paradigm in which other states are run, rather than having everybody w/ a degree or a certification make a beeline for Mumbai/Bangalore/Pune/Hyderabad/Gurgaon/.....

As far as the strongarm tactics of the Sena went, recall that in those days, Balasaheb, w/o ever holding public office such as BMCC mayor or Maharashtra CM, called the shots on Mumbai streets. For a while, Bollywood was scared to make movies that villified Hindus and glorified muslims. Back in his day, Hindus had real street power, something that has been destroyed by the BJP throughout, while both factions of today's Shiv Sena have betrayed his ideals: Eknath Shinde is following the same policies of triptikaran as BJP CMs in other states

As Santosh Dubey noted in his interview, people like Balasaheb Thackeray only come about once in a century, & it's not known whether we'll have another like him in a while!

Time n again people have brought up minority appeasement.

Everyone wants our nation to come out of being called a third world country. We have been depraved of basic civic conditions like clean places, clean drinking water, nutritious food for all, toilets for all, clean air, good roads. We still are..our cities n villages dont yet look like epitome of cleanliness. We want development. And it cannot be achieved just by uplifting one section who is already striving, aware n educated..and of course that section also needs lot of education in civic sense. Sabko apna ghar saaf rakhna hai..who cares about surroundings!

Point is..there r middle class muslims who have studied in mainstream, who r a part of mainstream and dont hold extreme views. I can’t vouch for their mentality or ideology but have observed that all they want to do is live a normal life like crores of us in the country. When we say that something is the root cause of whats wrong with Islamic extremists..why not give them a chance to come out of that. I mean that is the only shot we have at truly achieving some sort of peace. They may not vote, may not acknowledge the reasons behind their better living conditions. But we can hope. Wo subah kabhi to aayegi. At least conditions in the country will improve.

And minority affairs ministry will talk about whats done for minority. Its their job.
What about the improvement, various schemes, growth that we see otherwise in India? Nobody pays attention in highlighting that? I remember seeing a video about this in this CA forum itself.

I believe that there is a simple rule that can be applied to muslims:

• You have the right of freedom of religion, as in namaz, roza,... However, namaz is restricted to home or mosques: you don't get to block roads, occupy public parts or so on
• Jihad may be a central part of islam, but it doesn't fall under freedom of religion. If you wanna wage war on kafirs, you will be made a refugee to Pakistan or Bangladesh or Afghanistan. This also applies if you stone Hindu religious processions, like Rath Yatra, Ram Navami, Durga Puja visarjan,......
• No special rights or subsidies for you, such as haj. We Hindus don't get subsidies to visit Kashi, Ayodhya, Dwarka, Tirupati..... Sikhs don't get subsidies to visit Harmandir Sahib, Anandpur Sahib.... Buddhists don't get subsidies to visit Lumbini. Catholics don't get subsidies to visit Vatican. Anglicans don't get subsidies to visit Canterbury. No reason visits to Mecca/Medina need to be subsidized by non-muslims

Originally posted by: Vr15h

I always knew that there were Hindus in Pakistan & Bangladesh. I studied & lived in the US since 1992, although I'm right now in India for a bit. In 1995, I had a colleague at work who was a Bangladeshi Hindu, and he told me how as a kid, muslim classmates used to try to get him to recite the kalma, which he determinedly refused. In Kolkata, I heard from ex-Bangladeshi Hindus how persecution is going on there. What we are seeing today is nothing new: it probably started when Ershad declared Bangladesh an islamic republic. May he RIH

As far as Pakistan goes, I know that Dr Omendra Ratnu & Jai Ahuja both founded an NGO called Nimitekkam, which helps settle Paki Hindus in India by pairing them w/ people of their castes. Both of them are supportive of the BJP, which is their call, but the BJP has been dragging its feet on CAA, and only finalized the rules some weeks ago to coincide w/ the Supreme Court order on Electoral bonds. Anyway, even CAA only protects 🇵🇰🇦🇫🇧🇩 Hindus who have been here before 2014! If they have been here since, the wait is still 11 years, rather than 5. Much of this has been discussed in the CAA thread

When we were celebrating the Ayodhya inauguration on IF (it was not a pran-pratistha according to the Shankaracharyas), I didn't wanna rain on that parade, so didn't say anything there. But the fact remains that the Sangh Parivar was against the demolition of the Babri, and their volunteers were there to protect it. There was a fascinating interview w/ Santosh Dubey & Ravi Shankar, 2 of the men who organized the demolition, and they had fascinating things to say about the operation. Yeah, there were all those commissions investigating the demolition, & they cleared the RSS/BJP/VHP of it, and they happened to be right. This operation was a Shiv Sena operation, as Balasaheb-dada later owned, and Santosh Dubey was (maybe still is?) a member of the Shiv Sena. Oh, & major revelation from that interview: Dubey-ji had a meeting w/ PM PVNR, who gave him all the tools & accessories he needed, and 5 hours to finish the job. Dubey-ji described how he & his men went about it

I remember the day the Babri demolition happened. I was a student in the US, & my roommate, who shared my views on muslims, came back home & excitedly told me that the Babri had been demolished. Within the local Indian student community there, we were split 50/50, but that didn't stop me. I got active on Usenet, which was the internet based newsgroup bulletins that we had at the time, & was one of those defending the demolition & combating muslims. This was a decade before I discovered Robert Spencer & Jihadwatch

Also, one forgets that after the Babri demolition, India was roundedly condemned by the OIC, and Hindus as well as their temples were attacked in both Pakistan and Bangladesh. It was after this that PVNR resumed diplomatic relations w/ Israel, which Indira Gandhi had cut off in 1983 in response to the Israeli war in Lebanon. All those decades of supporting the PLO were proven stupid, since there was no gratitude from the Arabs for this support. Like Hugh Fitzgerald at Jihadwatch noted, muslim loyalties can never be bought, only rented

Another thing - I never got why the Sangh Parivar were at so much pains to prove that Babri wasn't a mosque, or that no namaz took place there. BFD! Even if namaz did happen there, it was built on stolen property, & so deserved to be demolished, as would be Gyanvapi, Shahi Idgah and some 40,000 other mosques in the country that were built over temples. These days, whenever a muslim commits some atrocity, their property is destroyed by either "Bulldozer Baba" or his imitators, & the explanation given is that it was illegally built on stolen land. The same applies here as well eg Quwaat ul Islam mosque in Delhi, which was built by demolishing 27 Vaishnav & Jain temples. We should be unapologetic about reclaiming them, even if it means demolishing mosques. And no Virginia, you don't get to drag on court cases for another 50 years

As far as Balasaheb goes, I used to be supportive of his Hindutva, but opposed to "आमची मुंबई मराठी मुंबई" campaign. But listening to a speech a year ago by Raj Thackeray, I retrospectively agree w/ him. There is no way any city, or even state in India can accommodate all of India's population, or even a bulk, simply b'cos other states like Bengal or Bihar are badly managed. The solution lies in changing the paradigm in which other states are run, rather than having everybody w/ a degree or a certification make a beeline for Mumbai/Bangalore/Pune/Hyderabad/Gurgaon/.....

As far as the strongarm tactics of the Sena went, recall that in those days, Balasaheb, w/o ever holding public office such as BMCC mayor or Maharashtra CM, called the shots on Mumbai streets. For a while, Bollywood was scared to make movies that villified Hindus and glorified muslims. Back in his day, Hindus had real street power, something that has been destroyed by the BJP throughout, while both factions of today's Shiv Sena have betrayed his ideals: Eknath Shinde is following the same policies of triptikaran as BJP CMs in other states

As Santosh Dubey noted in his interview, people like Balasaheb Thackeray only come about once in a century, & it's not known whether we'll have another like him in a while!

Last para. Reason why he and his party were constantly vilified for years. He sustained because he was strong.

First Para. U knew coz u lived out of India and got to interact with Bangladeshi Hindus..or in Bengal to which Bangladesh is connected by umbilical cord.

Us Indian kids living in other parts of India and studying Indian history, geography syllabus never knew. Maybe our parents did, maybe not.
our grandparents surely would have known.

I don’t know the history of Sangh Parivar. But this article by The Wire is in public domain.

https://thewire.in/communalism/rss-sangh-parivar-babri-masjid

Originally posted by: Kyahikahoon

Last para. Reason why he and his party were constantly vilified for years. He sustained because he was strong.

First Para. U knew coz u lived out of India and got to interact with Bangladeshi Hindus..or in Bengal to which Bangladesh is connected by umbilical cord.

Us Indian kids living in other parts of India and studying Indian history, geography syllabus never knew. Maybe our parents did, maybe not.
our grandparents surely would have known.

I don’t know the history of Sangh Parivar. But this article by The Wire is in public domain.

https://thewire.in/communalism/rss-sangh-parivar-babri-masjid

One thing the Sanghis are right about: Wire/Scroll/Print... are all garbage. The courts found them innocent, and reason as I mentioned: it was a Shiv Sena + independent Kar Sevak operation. The RSS people who were there were trying to protect the Babri, not demolish it. One thing Santosh Dubey mentioned: he & his men had their front row volunteers armed w/ tools needed for demolition, while the rearguard were armed w/ swords & trishuls to scare away the Sanghis. Which is what happened: when they tried to discourage the Kar Sevaks from assaulting the Babri, they got threatened and fled

Speaking of the Congress - PVNR's Congress that is - he wanted the party to regain the Hindu trust, which is why he secretly supported this operation, & also had trains made available to clear Ayodhya of Kar Sevaks. Only problem: his party was strongly opposed to him, & revolted against him when his term ended, & humiliated him after his death. My respect for PVNR, which wasn't much previously, has shot up recently by what I learned. However, the party that he led is pretty much unrecognizable today and resembles a "Jamaat-e-islami India"

The things u mentioned (about rss) I'm reading for the first time...

I'm a bit curious... What are your views on Yogi ji?