The 9th avatar of Lord Vishnu??? - Page 6

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#51

Originally posted by: .Vrish.
^^^^ So the above account rejects the idea of Mahavira as the founder of Jainism? Or was the religion that they mention actually one different from Jainism?

It is the same Jainism. But this account raises a question over the Jains' claim of Rishabhadeva being the first Tithankara. AFAIK, Rishabhadeva had nothing to do with Jainism.

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Bhaskari

@bhas1066

Navigator

Posted: 12 years ago

#52

Originally posted by: varaali
We seem to be going around in circles.Presently the question in circulation seems to be twofold :

Whether Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu or not
If so, does he figure in the top 10, or in the larger group of 22?

As I said earlier, SB mentions 22 avatars of Vishnu. Let us forget the subsect of Dasha Avatars for a minute and concentrate on the bigger list of 22. In that list, there are avatars as diverse as Kurma (who did nothing put to support the mountain) , King Prithu, Sage Kapila , Mohini and the four Sanat Kumaras.

Srimad Bhagavtham, Veda Vyasa and Suta Goswami had no problems with accepting the fact that in His next incarnation as Buddha, Vishnu is not going to talk about the Vedas, yagnas, rituals, etc but will preach on more basic, fundamental social ethics.

It is also said in SB itself that such an unique / different avatar will be required because of the turbulent times the world will be passing through. Scientific knowledge would have advanced so much that men would be shooting invisible rockets / missiles into outer space which will hold a threat of not only destroying life on Earth, but lives(if at all) on other spheres as well.

For anybody who is quoting srimad bhagvatam / bhagwat puran , goswami and vyas , please know that the 22 avatars it states is including Balarama and states Krishna as the source of them not Vishnu.

i have pasted that portion from SB here and also providing the link. please check it out.

Chapter 3: Krishna is the Source of All Incarnations (not agreeable to me. Krishna is only an avatar not the source!!!)

(6) "The sons of Brahm [the Kumras] were first disciplined in austerity for the sake of realizing continuity. (7) He next incarnated for the sake of the welfare of the earth like a boar lifting her up from the lower regions. (8) Thirdly He accepted [in the form of Nrada Muni] His presence among the learned for the sake of evolving Vedic knowledge concerning the service in devotion without further material motives. (9) Fourth born as the twin sons of king Dharma in the form of Nara-Nryana He underwent severe penances to attain control over the senses. (10) Fifth with the name of Kapila He gave an exposition to the brahmin suri on the nature of metaphysics and the elements of creation because in the course of time the knowledge was lost. (11) Sixth, born as the son of Atri from Anasy who prayed for Him, He lectured to Alarka, Prahlda and others about transcendence. (12) Seventh born from kti as Yaja, the son of Prajpati Ruci He, assisted the godly, with His son Yamaruled during the period of Svyambhuva Manu. (13) Eighth, from the wife of King Nbhi, Merudev, He took birth as King Rishabha and showed the path of perfection respected by people of all stages of life. (14) Accepting His ninth incarnation in response to the prayers of the sages, He ruled [as Prithu] the earth for the sake of its cultivation and produces, which made her beautifully attractive. (15) Like a fish [Mtsya] in the water He kept Vaivasvata Manu after the period of Ckshusha Manu protected in a boat afloat the waters when the world was deeply inundated. (16) Eleventh as a tortoise [Kurma] He sustained the Mandarcala Hill of the theists and atheists that served as a pivot in the ocean. (17) Twelfth there was Dhanvantari [Lord of medicine] and thirteenth He appeared as an alluring beautiful woman to the atheists when He gave nectar to the godly. (18) In His fourteenth incarnation He appeared as Nrisimha, who with His nails half as a Lion on His lap tore apart the king of the atheists like a carpenter splitting cane. (19) Fifteenth He assumed the form of Vmana [the dwarf-brhmana] who went to the arena of sacrifice of Mahrja Bali and begged for three steps of land only, while He in fact wanted to seize the three worlds. (20) In His sixteenth incarnation [as Bhrigupati or Paras'urma] He acted twenty-one times against the ruling class that negated the intelligentsia. (21) Seeing the common people as being less intelligent He seventeenth incarnated as Vysadeva taking birth from Satyavat with Pars'ara Muni as His father, in order to divide the desire tree of the Veda into several branches. (22) Next He performed in a superhuman way in controlling the Indian Ocean having assumed the form of a divine human being [Rma] in order to act for the sake of the godly. (23) Nineteenth as well as twentieth He appeared as Balarama and Krishna from the Vrishni family and thus Bhagavn removed the burden from the world. (24) Thereafter in the Age of Kali His birth as Lord Buddha from Ajan in Gay will take place in order to delude the ones envious of the theists. (25) Next, at the conjunction of two yugas when there is hardly a ruler to be found who is not a plunderer, the Lord carrying the name of Kalki will take birth as the son of Vishnu Yas'."

here is the link:
http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/downloads/bhagavatam-canto1.html#3

The question here is of the Top Ten which has only one slot for Kali Yuga avatar . which would it be--- Buddha or Kalki??

How come Varaha comes before Matsya and Kurma avatars? The timeline doesnt fit.

In this list why isnt Dattatreya included. He is accepted as an avatar of Vishnu right?

Edited by bhas1066 - 12 years ago

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#53

^^^^^ 19th- Balarama

20th Krishna

21st Buddha

22nd Kalki

That's what I have been saying. Refer to my earlier post here

And in the link quoted by you above, where does it say that Krishna and not Vishnu is the source of all creation?

Edited by varaali - 12 years ago

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 12 years ago

#54

Originally posted by: varaali

In that case, logically Dhanvantri should precede Mohini. So it should be Kurma- Dhanvantri- Mohini then every one else. That would mean Krishna occupying the No 10 slot. No Kalki , no Buddha. Incidentally in the list of 22, Varha is at the No 1.

In the 10 avatars, Dhanvantri wouldn't be in the list. I brought up Mohini b'cos after Kurma's job was done, hers began. The other 12 on the list I wasn't considering in this analysis.

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#55

Bhaas1006,

Are you referring to the heading of the chapter (3rd Adhaya of Skanda 1) which says Krishna is the source of all incarnations?

The heading, I would like to say, has been added by Prabhupada ji. (whose version is in the link quoted by you) There is no such heading in the original. And if you look at the verses carefully (in Sanskrit) no where is the word Krishna used, (except to indicate his descent on Earth.) It is only Bhagavan, or its synonyms.

Both the online versions www.srimadbhagavtham.com and www.srimadbhagavtham.org are Prabhupada's explanations. Whilst they are useful for quoting online or for a quick search, I personally prefer Gita Press' version (for translations).

BTW, yuo have edited your post multiple times. First you had mentioned that according to SB there were 25 avatars. You had me momentarily stumped, 😕 until you corrected it to 22.

Edited by varaali - 12 years ago

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Bhaskari

@bhas1066

Navigator

Posted: 12 years ago

#56

umm its Bhas1066.

gita press version??? u mean hard copy?? u have one??

Edited by bhas1066 - 12 years ago

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#57

Originally posted by: bhas1066
umm its Bhas1066.

Sorry about that.😊

gita press version??? u mean hard copy?? u have one??

Yes, I do. It runs into two volumes. The translations given there are more true to the original thanPrabhupada ji's which, with all due respect to him, lean heavily towards Krishna.

Word Count: 1

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#58

Originally posted by: bhas1066

(11) Sixth, born as the son of Atri from Anasy who prayed for Him, He lectured to Alarka, Prahlda and others about transcendence.

Originally posted by: bhas1066
In this list why isnt Dattatreya included. He is accepted as an avatar of Vishnu right?

I have segregated the required section from your post itself - which mentions the birth of Dattatreya. So your question is answered.

Edited by varaali - 12 years ago

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Bhaskari

@bhas1066

Navigator

Posted: 12 years ago

#59

First i didnt have any answers so i was like this:

Then i started this topic and while i got some answers i got equally good opposite answers!! so i was like:

Then we began going around in circles.

And finally now i am like:

and i realized that "ALL IS MAYA!!!" THE ONE IS ALL AND ALL IS ONE!!!

so PEACE OUT!!!

Edited by bhas1066 - 12 years ago

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Shivang

@ShivangBuch

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#60

Originally posted by: varaali
We seem to be going around in circles.
Well I and Vrish and earlier I and Janaki were replying to each other in continuous flow 1-1 points. So it was natural flow of discussion actually with every post to be response to other's post or clarification of own previous post. I never aimed at concluding or expected the conclusion of this thread so early actually so perhaps it seemed that we were going in circles. Actually more clarifications were happening and were ongoing. But anyway I am truly enjoying all these systematic summary posts of yours and Bhas1066.

Presently the question in circulation seems to be twofold :
Whether Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu or not
If so, does he figure in the top 10, or in the larger group of 22?
Exactly.

Let me try to summarize everybody's arguments:

Vrish 's : objection to Gautama Buddha is that in his search for enlightenment, he abandoned his family / kingdom midway without providing for their future. This act of renunciation / abandonment is not sanctified by scriptures, hence this counts against him. Verdict : Cannot be considered an avatar

Janaki : allows Buddha to be an avatar but in the larger group of 22, not in the Dasha Avatar subsect
Is it so? I thought Janaki is of the firm view till the end that Buddha can be any noble or sage soul like any rishi of our epics but not Vishnu. So not even in 22.

Shivang : Not all the avatars of Vishnu need to have had identical philosophies. Each avatar was distinct / different from each other. Similarly, despite all the arguments marshalled against Gautama, he can be considered an avatar. Verdict : Can be considered an avatar , that too in the top ten.
Yes. I am actually open to count him in either top 10 (no problem for sure) or in 22 (if not in top 10) and my consideration through most of the discussions in the thread has been on the acceptance or belief of 22/24 avatars and often I brought forward names of Kapil, Dattatreya, Rishabhdev, Vyas etc along with those links. And Balram I consider to be incarnation of Vishnu jointly with Krishna like Vrish said if at all we count him in top 10. In 22 avatars, he is clearly separately counted and it doesn't make any difference really over there since it doesn't distort the premise or theory of 4:3:2:1 in that total counting.

Varaali : Now,first of all, I would like to ask who's word do we take as the final authority? For me, I would like to consider Srimad Bhagavatham / Veda Vyasa as the guiding source. And here, there are answers to the questions raised in this thread.

As I said earlier, SB mentions 22 avatars of Vishnu. Let us forget the subsect of Dasha Avatars for a minute and concentrate on the bigger list of 22. In that list, there are avatars as diverse as Kurma (who did nothing but to support the mountain) , King Prithu, Sage Kapila , Mohini and the four Sanat Kumaras.

It is in this list that Buddha is included. Our problem in reconciling with Buddha seems to be the fact that the tenets that he preached seem to go against the pillars on which Hinduism stood . My answer to that is this was what he was supposed to do anyway. His birth and his preachings had been predicted at the dawn of Kali Yuga itself.

Srimad Bhagavtham, Veda Vyasa and Suta Goswami had no problems with accepting the fact that in His next incarnation as Buddha, Vishnu is not going to talk about the Vedas, yagnas, rituals, etc but will preach on more basic, fundamental social ethics.

It is also said in SB itself that such an unique / different avatar will be required because of the turbulent times the world will be passing through. Scientific knowledge would have advanced so much that men would be shooting invisible rockets / missiles into outer space which will hold a threat of not only destroying life on Earth, but lives(if at all) on other spheres as well.

So I am not going to reject Gautama Buddha's claim to avatar hood just because he did not give importance to what is considered sacrosanct in Hinduism. If SB, Vyasa and Suta have allowed him to be an avatr who am I to question it ?
Perfect.👏

But that doesn't mean I am going to start celebrating Buddha Jayanti with gusto (except maybe to wish Shivang on his birthday 😃) .

😆 Idhar bhi nahi bhule!!!!! Waise let me clarify that this is not the reason why I have no problem in considering him Vishnu avatar. 🤣

@Vrish

It seems that Mohini has really made you totally Mohit.😃 If Mohini can be included in top 10, why not someone like Dattatreya or Prithu and so on? And if Kurma and Mohini didn't overlap, Dhanvantari and Mohini (And Kurma and Dhanvantari) did overlap as Varaali said. Even Ram-Parshuram and Krishna-Vyas-Balram did overlap and also Parshuram-Vyas-Ram also probably. So Vishnu hasn't necessarily shown that in order to consider one to be a separate avatar, one must start after the other one finishes the job. However, I am also more comfortable in considering Krishna-Balram to be collective avatars like RLBS just like you.

Edited by ShivangBuch - 12 years ago

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