Adnan Sami on Kangana Controversy - Page 5

Originally posted by: malikakas

A lot of those terms are related to the fact that historically women have been considered lesser beings. "You suck" as a pejorative for example is related to a sexual role that is routinely delegated to women. The oppression of women is so mainstream that most women think it is the norm to be treated like that.

2 examples:

1) Women and men reciting the exact same scripted conversation yet its the women who are perceived as less intelligent for doing the exact same thing as a man.

"By playing clips of carefully scripted conversations to 5,000 Americans, Hilton was able to investigate people's perceptions of different speakers. Sometimes those reading the scripts were male. Sometimes they were female. Did the gender of the speaker make a difference to listeners' assessments of whether the speaker was rude or just excited, even though the scripts were exactly the same?

It did. Hilton "found a gender disparity among survey participants," reports Stanford News. "Male listeners were more likely to view women who interrupted another speaker in the audio clips as ruder, less friendly, and less intelligent than men who interrupted.""

www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/what-counts-as-a-rude-interruption-depends-on-your-gender-study-confirms.html

2) Barbara Barres transitioned to Ben Barres at the age of 40 and commented on his experiences as compared to when he was recognized as a woman.

“It was only changing sex at the age of 40 and experiencing life from the vantage of a man that I finally came to be fully aware of these barriers,” he writes. “People who don’t know I am transgender [now] treat me with much more respect. I can even complete a whole sentence without being interrupted by a man,” Barres wrote in a Nature commentary in 2006. After Barres gave a talk as Ben, he heard an audience member remark, “Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister’s."

www.nature.com/scitable/content/does-gender-matter-by-ben-a-barres-10602856/

The oppression of women is incredibly pervasive. That's not to say trans people don't have their share of struggles but you can't undermine the degree of oppression women have had to face in the past and continue to face in order to further a certain agenda with trans rights. Unfortunately there are places where the rights of the two groups come into conflict with each other. Silencing what could be meaningful discussion on these issues just further subjugates women.

Nobody is undermining womens' struggles. But they are not mocked SIMPLY FOR EXISTING. Their very existence is not seen as an anomaly. There's a vast difference between the two. Transpeople are made to feel that they should not exist. That's way worse than women have been treated. Way, way, wayyy more worse.

There is definitely a merit with the 'transwomen in jails' argument. No denying that putting transwomen with male genitalia can put women at risk if that prisoner has history of sexual violence. But then, putting transwomen in male jails will also expose them to risks of getting raped and exploited, much more than women will be exposed to risks of sexual assault with one transwoman in the midst of say, 10 cisgender women.

Same goes for transwomen in sports. That's also a grey area. I think in such cases, a seperate strength category should be created to decide whether a transperson can compete with cisgender women or not.

Originally posted by: Mahisa_22

Nobody is undermining womens' struggles. But they are not mocked SIMPLY FOR EXISTING. Their very existence is not seen as an anomaly. There's a vast difference between the two. Transpeople are made to feel that they should not exist. That's way worse than women have been treated. Way, way, wayyy more worse.

Umm... women have been killed for simply existing, My sister is a family doc and just recently she desperately tried to get this woman to not abort her female daughter because her in laws didn't want another female grandchild. Historically women have been placed in harems, taken as sexual slaves. I just don't buy that historically someone who was raised as a male despite identifying more as a female faced nearly these kinds of atrocities. If anything being assigned a male gender at birth may have been a blessing in disguise in the olden days.

Never saw Salman Khan incite hate and violence against any community or make communal, casteist remarks. He has many other issues and cases to his credit but no one can find him making hate speech and inciting communal disharmony or question anyone's loyalty to nation.

Originally posted by: malikakas

Umm... women have been killed for simply existing, My sister is a family doc and just recently she desperately tried to get this woman to not abort her female daughter because her in laws didn't want another female grandchild. Historically women have been placed in harems, taken as sexual slaves. I just don't buy that historically someone who was raised as a male despite identifying more as a female faced nearly these kinds of atrocities. If anything being assigned a male gender at birth may have been a blessing in disguise in the olden days.

Is that true for every single woman? VAST MAJORITY of women have been aborted and taken as sex slaves? No, right? Also, women are not ridiculed or mocked simply for being a woman. As in, nobody tells women that they should not exist, do they?

But, guess what, abuse and ridicule are a part of overwhelming majority of transpeople's lives. They are told that THEY SHOULD NOT EXIST and that their existence is invalid.

And regardless of what happened in the olden days, in today's age cis women lead way better lives than transwomen. Women are celebrated, their right are celebrated and rightly so. Sexual discrimination and violence against women are things nobody dares advocate openly anywhere. But mocking and ridiculing transpeople are still very much socially acceptable in most places.

Originally posted by: Mahisa_22

Is that true for every single woman? VAST MAJORITY of women have been aborted and taken as sex slaves? No, right? Also, women are not ridiculed or mocked simply for being a woman. As in, nobody tells women that they should not exist, do they?

But, guess what, abuse and ridicule are a part of overwhelming majority of transpeople's lives. They are told that THEY SHOULD NOT EXIST and that their existence is invalid.

And regardless of what happened in the olden days, in today's age cis women lead way better lives than transwomen. Women are celebrated, their right are celebrated and rightly so. Sexual discrimination and violence against women are things nobody dares advocate openly anywhere. But mocking and ridiculing transpeople are still very much socially acceptable in most places.

If you are considered a lesser being and not an equal human how is that any better? The vast majority of women did not have equal rights up until recently and in many places STILL do not have equal rights. Also women are absolutely mocked for simply being women. How many harmful stereotypes do we have on women? People may not tell women they shouldn't exist (although some families do think and act in that way by literally killing them) but definitely a large number tell women "how" they should exist. Ie women's roles have been strictly defined. How many have been mocked for entering into strictly masculine careers? Women have had to struggle to break gender norms. In that way there are similarities in the struggles of trans ppl.

I don't know if you have read much about Maslow hierarchy of needs. The difference is that women's struggles have existed on a basic level for much of history. Basic physiological needs and safety need to be achieved before we can focus on love/belonging or self actualization. The struggles of gender identity can only come after your basic needs have been met.

Originally posted by: Mahisa_22

There is definitely a merit with the 'transwomen in jails' argument. No denying that putting transwomen with male genitalia can put women at risk if that prisoner has history of sexual violence. But then, putting transwomen in male jails will also expose them to risks of getting raped and exploited, much more than women will be exposed to risks of sexual assault with one transwoman in the midst of say, 10 cisgender women.

Same goes for transwomen in sports. That's also a grey area. I think in such cases, a seperate strength category should be created to decide whether a transperson can compete with cisgender women or not.

The basic point is that there is complexity to the discussion. I don't think there can be a perfect answer because different people have different priorities. The problem is when people deny others the right to discuss alternate opinions and shut them down as "hate speech". That's not to say hate speech doesn't exist but more often than not people just label what they don't like to hear as "hate speech".

Originally posted by: malikakas

If you are considered a lesser being and not an equal human how is that any better? The vast majority of women did not have equal rights up until recently and in many places STILL do not have equal rights. Also women are absolutely mocked for simply being women. How many harmful stereotypes do we have on women? People may not tell women they shouldn't exist (although some families do think and act in that way by literally killing them) but definitely a large number tell women "how" they should exist. Ie women's roles have been strictly defined. How many have been mocked for entering into strictly masculine careers? Women have had to struggle to break gender norms. In that way there are similarities in the struggles of trans ppl.

I don't know if you have read much about Maslow hierarchy of needs. The difference is that women's struggles have existed on a basic level for much of history. Basic physiological needs and safety need to be achieved before we can focus on love/belonging or self actualization. The struggles of gender identity can only come after your basic needs have been met.

Bold: That's not true. Struggling with gender identities is real. Not having your body and biological activities the way your brain feels they should, is a very very real and dark struggle. Add societal discrimination to it and you have a mix which can potentially push you to commit suicide.

Again, women, although discriminated and disadvantaged, still have a place of importance in society which recognizes that no society would exist without women. Even in the darkest phases of patriarchy, women in their traditional roles as mother and sister (or caregivers) were hailed for being perfect mothers and sisters. Yes, that stemmed from a deeply patriarchal mindset, but still, WOMEN ALWAYS HAD A PLACE IN SOCIETY.

Transpeople never had even that place. Do you understand the point here? If women were oppressed and belittled servants within the household, transpeople were beggars on the street without even a roof over their heads. That's how the comparison should roll.

Originally posted by: Mahisa_22

Bold: That's not true. Struggling with gender identities is real. Not having your body and biological activities the way your brain feels they should, is a very very real and dark struggle. Add societal discrimination to it and you have a mix which can potentially push you to commit suicide.

Again, women, although discriminated and disadvantaged, still have a place of importance in society which recognizes that no society would exist without women. Even in the darkest phases of patriarchy, women in their traditional roles as mother and sister (or caregivers) were hailed for being perfect mothers and sisters. Yes, that stemmed from a deeply patriarchal mindset, but still, WOMEN ALWAYS HAD A PLACE IN SOCIETY.

Transpeople never had even that place. Do you understand the point here? If women were oppressed and belittled servants within the household, transpeople were beggars on the street without even a roof over their heads. That's how the comparison should roll.

I never said struggling with gender identity is not real. But it’s not a basic need like trying to obtain food clothing and security. If you are struggling for basic necessities you are not going to be worrying about whether someone calls you by the right pronoun.

@bold: Where have trans been beggars in the western world to which JK Rowling was referring to? If you are talking about hijras in India that’s a completely different discussion. Trans refers to people whose gender identity differs from the gender they were assigned at birth. No one would have killed a trans person in utero purely for existing because it’s something that comes to light later after a person develops a sense of self to understand whether they conform to a binary gender identity or not. That only happens after you have your basic needs met.

Originally posted by: malikakas

I never said struggling with gender identity is not real. But it’s not a basic need like trying to obtain food clothing and security. If you are struggling for basic necessities you are not going to be worrying about whether someone calls you by the right pronoun.

@bold: Where have trans been beggars in the western world to which JK Rowling was referring to? If you are talking about hijras in India that’s a completely different discussion. Trans refers to people whose gender identity differs from the gender they were assigned at birth. No one would have killed a trans person in utero purely for existing because it’s something that comes to light later after a person develops a sense of self to understand whether they conform to a binary gender identity or not. That only happens after you have your basic needs met.

The problem is that you're reducing gender identity struggles to just 'referring to you by the right pronouns'. That's not what it is. Being forced to hide your true identity gives rise to mental health problems which can lead to suicide. It's a 'basic need' by all means.

No, I'm not talking about hijras. Trans people have been killed purely for existing too, maybe not in uterus but they have and still are. That doesn't change the fact that they have worse lives than women after being born.

Yes, nobody killed a transwoman in the uterus. But after being born, her life was HELL compared to cis women who nobody considered as 'freaks'. Great difference, that. *eyeroll*

Trans have been 'homeless beggars' in terms of treatment meted out to them. The 'servants and beggars' term was a metaphor. To make you understand that transpeople's status were always much worse than women. If women were servants, trans were beggars. That's the comparison.