Remove following characters from the epic - Page 6

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Shakuni's death just served the revenge purpose. I too think it served no important purpose. Sahadev I do understand had something to contribute but Nakul is absolutely unnecessary apart from that Yaksha episode. However I don't believe dead people can come to life by answering some questions. Yaksha Prashna is beautifully written. Hats off to the poet who composed this but it doesn't serve any purpose to the story except give Yudhishthir some footage. If we remove that, it makes no difference. I anyway feel that's a folktale. So, if u do remote Nakul only, it just decreases some verses. :P

Yes that and the fact that Yudhishtir got one additional game to play. In the absence of Nakul he had only three brothers, himself and Draupadi to stake🤔.

So for Yudhishtir, Nakul definitely was important he gave him one full game to play

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Good Point

Karna and Shakuni are mentioned in Bhima poisoning incident, which happened before they started their lessons from Kripa, Drona came way later

Karna and Arjun's enmity started during they were studying under Drona

Why would Karna hold grudges against Pandavas from childhood/teenage?

I was wondering, if Shakuni influenced both Duryodhana and Karna

To be honest I don't think Shakuni would have had any interest in the son of a charioteer. Karna turned out to be a great warrior later, but no one in his childhood or early teens would have known that he will become so. Why would Shakuni have any interest in Karna when he had 98 nephews to support his favourite Dury+Dushy.

Either Karna's involvement in the Bheem poisoning thing is a later addition or else Karna was a trusted servant to Duryodhan in his early ages.

Adhirath being Dhritrashtra's charioteer, his son would have definitely been foreseen as the future charioteer to the next generation king(although not necessary, many jobs did pass on hereditarily to the next generation back then). Since both Dhritrashtra and Duryodhan foresaw Duryodhan as the next Yuvraj, maybe he had kept Karna as a company to Duryodhan since childhood for them to gel so as to ensure that they make a great team later (and they actually did)

I think back then Karna supported Duryodhan in everything not as a friend but as a Sewak. I think their fondness grew with age and they got friendly in Dron Ashram(where after having noticed that Karna was good, he got admitted) and finally after the Rangbhumi incident they became best of friends

I wonder why exactly then was Shakuni so interested in the downfall of the Pandavas

Only because he wanted his sister's son on the throne?

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m15/m15028.htm

At the command of the Grandsire, and through my own energy, Vidura of great intelligence was procreated by me upon a soil owned by Vichitraviryya. A deity of deities, and eternal, he was, O king, thy brother. The learned know him to be Dharma in consequence of his practices of Dharana and Dhyana. 2 He grows with (the growth of) truth, self-restraint, tranquillity of heart, compassion, and gifts. He is always engaged in penances, and is eternal. From that deity of Righteousness, through Yoga-puissance, the Kuru king Yudhishthira also took his birth. Yudhishthira, therefore, O king, is Dharma of great wisdom and immeasurable intelligence. Dharma exists both here and hereafter, and is like fire or wind or water or earth or space. He is, O king of kings, capable of going everywhere and exists, pervading the whole universe. He is capable of being beheld by only those that are the foremost of the deities and those that are cleansed of every sin and crowned with ascetic success. He that is Dharma is Vidura; and he

p. 44

that is Vidura is the (eldest) son of Pandu

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m15/m15028.htm

At the command of the Grandsire, and through my own energy, Vidura of great intelligence was procreated by me upon a soil owned by Vichitraviryya. A deity of deities, and eternal, he was, O king, thy brother. The learned know him to be Dharma in consequence of his practices of Dharana and Dhyana. 2 He grows with (the growth of) truth, self-restraint, tranquillity of heart, compassion, and gifts. He is always engaged in penances, and is eternal. From that deity of Righteousness, through Yoga-puissance, the Kuru king Yudhishthira also took his birth. Yudhishthira, therefore, O king, is Dharma of great wisdom and immeasurable intelligence. Dharma exists both here and hereafter, and is like fire or wind or water or earth or space. He is, O king of kings, capable of going everywhere and exists, pervading the whole universe. He is capable of being beheld by only those that are the foremost of the deities and those that are cleansed of every sin and crowned with ascetic success. He that is Dharma is Vidura; and he

p. 44

that is Vidura is the (eldest) son of Pandu

This also supports the claim that Yudhishthir is Vidur's son, because Vidur is Dharma himself (also an incarnation of Dharma as per legends) and Yudhishthir is Dharma's son. Isn't it?

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Good Point

Karna and Shakuni are mentioned in Bhima poisoning incident, which happened before they started their lessons from Kripa, Drona came way later

Karna and Arjun's enmity started during they were studying under Drona

Why would Karna hold grudges against Pandavas from childhood/teenage?

I was wondering, if Shakuni influenced both Duryodhana and Karna

I feel Karna was not happy because he didn't identify as a ROYAL PRINCE. Technically, the only privilege that Karna did not have and Pandavas and Dury-Dushy+98 did were the royal parentage. They were princes. Karna's grudge was that although he was as talented (as per his thoughts) and as valorous and prominent as these princes he didn't exactly get the royal stamp.

I think this sow the seeds of his jealousy. He saw the privilege of his bestie and although his bestie loved him, he always saw Bhishma Vidur etc and even the citizens favouring Pandu's sons more. He wanted this attention.

Idk if you're familiar with BW but consider this: Pandavas Kauravas are the Kapoors, Khans and Bhatts (wink wink). Hastinapur is the Dharma Productions. Their kids are always envied by everyone else aka the OUTSIDERS. Karna was one such person who tried to get hold of Duryodhan and supported his claims so Duryodhan helps him out.

I think this is the reason for his involvement so early. Caste discrimination was not his problem, his problem was he wasn't one of those people who write history. He wasn't royal. So he got himself a place and later he got to know he indeed did have royal blood. Kangana of Dwapar Yug. 🤣

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Actually that's what I answered, probably there would have been no war at all had Karna not been there

1) Not such personal humiliation of Draupadi

2) Non confidence of Duryodhan to enter the war

3) No one to further agitate Duryodhan against Pandavas

No war means no Mahabharata

then the pandavas would be living peacefully in indraprastha and the kauravas in hastinapur.

And if the dice game happened then the pandavas would be slave or freed later. or they would come back and fight for indraprastha

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Missed out on a lot, but I think, the characters mentioned in the initial post is important because-

Vidur- If we do consider he fathered Yudhishthir, alot changes. Apart from that too, Vidur was a dasiputra born of Vyasa's niyog and also the only brother among Dhrit, Pandu and Vidur who was an able king. Recently FlauntPessimism had made a thread about why Vidur was not a king. We did debate there, so Vidur's presence does raise a lot of questions of inheritance. Why can't a dasiputra be a king if he was most able in Kuru Kul where MERIT comes first?

Vidur is also pivotal in supporting the Pandavas. He was the only one who genuinely did support the Pandavas. The Varnavat incident, the Dyut Sabha episode are important examples. So I think he was very important.

Keechak - His murder was what lead to Kauravas understanding where the Pandavas were hiding. Also, it does play an important role in character development. It explains Bheem and Panchali's motives and their characteristics.

Dushashan- I had read in Pattanaik's book that it is probable that Gandhari had just two sons, Duryodhan and Dushashan and not 100 brothers. Dushashan isn't exactly an important one but he was a part of Duryodhan's gang of DDSK. I think he was important from Duryodhan's POV. If you remove him, it had to be either Karna or Dury himself who had to bring Draupadi from the room. So I guess, not too much of a difference.

Agree fully on Keechak

On Vidur, if one excludes the idea that he was the one who fathered Yudhisthir thru Kunti, nothing changes. Yeah, he'd keep advising Dhritarashtra and the Kauravas not to make enemies of the Pandavas, but got ignored. The Dyut sabha - he might as well not have been there, since everything Duryodhan wanted to do, he did! On Varnavarta, it's true that he helped the Pandavas disappear: the Pandavas would have escaped anyway, since they smelled the lac and therefore set the house on fire themselves one night earlier. Only difference would have been that it would have been known that they had escaped: the entire populace couldn't have faked their grief

On Dushashan, if Patnaik thinks that Gandhari had just 2 sons, why does Vyasa list out 100 names? She definitely had at least 3 - Vikarna was prominent in the dyut sabha as well. Although the story about her having a miscarriage and 100 sons and a daughter being created out of that - that does require some explaining. What's possible is that she and Dhritarashtra had quite a few sons, but at a certain point, they stopped and called it 100, since there were so many.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

To be honest I don't think Shakuni would have had any interest in the son of a charioteer. Karna turned out to be a great warrior later, but no one in his childhood or early teens would have known that he will become so. Why would Shakuni have any interest in Karna when he had 98 nephews to support his favourite Dury+Dushy.

Either Karna's involvement in the Bheem poisoning thing is a later addition or else Karna was a trusted servant to Duryodhan in his early ages.

Adhirath being Dhritrashtra's charioteer, his son would have definitely been foreseen as the future charioteer to the next generation king(although not necessary, many jobs did pass on hereditarily to the next generation back then). Since both Dhritrashtra and Duryodhan foresaw Duryodhan as the next Yuvraj, maybe he had kept Karna as a company to Duryodhan since childhood for them to gel so as to ensure that they make a great team later (and they actually did)

I think back then Karna supported Duryodhan in everything not as a friend but as a Sewak. I think their fondness grew with age and they got friendly in Dron Ashram(where after having noticed that Karna was good, he got admitted) and finally after the Rangbhumi incident they became best of friends

I also don't believe that Karna was around to poison Bhima. This would have been way before the tournament, and if Karna was involved in something like this earlier, Duryodhan would have known him: he wouldn't have asked him his name.

Note that one of Gandhari's 100 sons had the same name Karna, and he could have been the one involved in that plot. Also, the plot could have involved more of Duryodhan's brothers, since they all feared and hated Bhima, who did bully them.

Also, there is nothing the the epic that shows whose charioteer Adhirath is. In fact, there are so many theories that we've ourselves thrashed out here - one says that he was actually a Suta king near Anga, another that he was someone elses charioteer. Also, if we are using modern probabilities in determining what really happened, Karna's basket couldn't have taken it far w/o Karna dying of either hunger or fear: it's likely that it didn't go far b4 Adhirath retrieved it. If that's true, Karna may have grown up somewhere near Kuntibhoj's kingdom, rather than anywhere near either Hastinapur or Anga. Reason he was at Hastinapur was that he was an adult by then, and had gone there to seek his fortune

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

I wonder why exactly then was Shakuni so interested in the downfall of the Pandavas

Only because he wanted his sister's son on the throne?

The original Shakuni wasn't: he too was among those who advised Duryodhan not to envy them. He only played the game of dice b'cos he thought/knew that the Kauravas would be defeated by the Pandavas in a war