THE THINKERS’’..TOPIC 1. - Page 8

Happy Women's Day to all the dear ladies here.... 😊 😛 😉 ....
...now this is one celebration you guys cannot wish me in return... 😆

writing my reply in the meantime....pls checck back later...

Originally posted by: Akshata

About PMS, it's a biological thing and it can be really disturbing to some women.It's all about harmonal changes and a little irriation and other side effects are seen...I won't go into details.Most women I know are able to cope with it and no will even know that they are going through their PMS.

See, what I don't understand is, why do some women NOT accept they have it? 🤢😕

I hold all the ideals in The Ramayana very highly.But it would be wrong to take just one example and apply it to today's Kaliyug.There were plenty of norms for men to follow as well.Unfortunately,Man (Male) himself conveniently altered values to suit his selfish needs. Today's man understands this and hence respects the woman he marries and accepts her as his equal.

I agree men have used and made up "scriptures" for their own advantage. I beleive that has happened, but I don't beleive it happened here. For the sake of keeping the topic moving, how about if we assume the man did not write it for his own benefit (the writer was not with his wife when he wrote the epic), and that the dialogue between the 2 women is bona fide...more on this later...
Akshata

Originally posted by: Akshata

II,I read again what you wrote and this is what I feel.

Respect from anyone in this world has to be commanded NOT demanded if it has to come from the heart.There is no need for any law to enforce this because it cannot be done.Love and Respect are both feelings that are related to the heart.
For a wife to respect her husband,he should possess such qualities and vice versa.I am talking in today's context.In many arranged marriages,for example,there might not be that'love'or respect in the initial stage,because how can you have such feelings for a person you don't even know.But when the couple starts living together and sharing their joys and sorrows, these feelings of mutual love and respect will develop depending on their experiences.For instance,if the girl stands by her husband when he loses a good job which he had when they married and proves that she truely understands the meaning of"in good and bad times",she will definitely command respect from him.Similarly,if he supports her morally in case of some illness, and nurses her back to health,instead of looking for greener pastures,how can she not love and respect him?
"In good and bad health" is one of the vows,too.

Cheers

Ya, u see, i agree with u totally....the point i was trying to make (i accept i didn't write it well) is more or less the same u have made. U see, i feel that observing what was written in the scripture, she would be better able to support her husband. I have seen in real-life, that where she has not, she has then gone on to harm herself mentally and I feel this is because she herself lost out on her husband, who is an integral part of her. Basically, what the quotation I mentioned is saying is that the wife should not hanker so much after the material side of life as long as she can respect her husband, she will be OK. Whether she loves him or not cannot be forced upon her, but the respect side of it can. I agree wholeheartedly that the man should also love and respect his wife, and kinda touched on that in my post. It is a 2-way street, and that is fine. But sometimes, if he is not able to "earn" her respect, then I just feel she should "force" herself and let the bad-times just pass.

xyzee: read your stuff....sorry, I still don't agree...please don't take offense tho'.....u see, if my IL's came to stay with me for an extended period of time, then I wouldn't like it at all, cos I know they will interfere in my life. They already have. I have very bitter experiences, but wont recount these. From what I understand, in many communities, the girls parents don't even eat at the girls house, and I think the reason for this is that that way they don't stay there too long and spoil it for the girl and her life. These things do happen. However, I also think it is great the way your husband and you come across as being so supportive of each other. If everyone can strike that balance, then sure, why not let the girls parents live with the girl extensively. But I don't think it will ever be the norm no matter how educated people become, and neither do i think it should be commonplace. But that is just my opinion, and please don't think I am judging you or anyone else...(I'm sure u don't care anyway, but still, no offense intended..😊)...bottom line - i feel the boys parents should come first but the boy should also give full respect to his IL's as well. There can be extenuating circumstances and each situation should be considered independantly...

Originally posted by: vazz

I wanted to comment on II's post.. about woman respecting her man and her family. It is true that when one marries, the lady marries the family and not only the man. A man should be respected even if he is a dud. etc. The problem is that though that happens, the vice versa is not always happening. There are way too many instances of men dominating the households that some times I do not see the men treating the women with respect.

yes, it shouldn't be this way. Their should be love and respect from both sides...i concur with that.

Unfortunately I do not know the upanishads or the Indian 'granths' well, so I cannot quote anything. Respect CANNOT be demanded. It is a give and take road. If a woman does not respect her man and the man does respect her, then it may not be the feminism, but it could be defect of hers. If a man does not respect the woman, then what is it? We call the man arrogant, egoistic and leave it at that.

Why does a boy need to behave like a girl or the other way around? Let the kids develop on their own, keeping their instincts and behavioural traits original to their sex and see how the blossom.

Agreed!

Originally posted by: vazz

I wanted to comment on II's post.. about woman respecting her man and her family. It is true that when one marries, the lady marries the family and not only the man. A man should be respected even if he is a dud. etc. The problem is that though that happens, the vice versa is not always happening. There are way too many instances of men dominating the households that some times I do not see the men treating the women with respect.

yes, it shouldn't be this way. Their should be love and respect from both sides...i concur with that.

Unfortunately I do not know the upanishads or the Indian 'granths' well, so I cannot quote anything. Respect CANNOT be demanded. It is a give and take road. If a woman does not respect her man and the man does respect her, then it may not be the feminism, but it could be defect of hers. If a man does not respect the woman, then what is it? We call the man arrogant, egoistic and leave it at that.

Why does a boy need to behave like a girl or the other way around? Let the kids develop on their own, keeping their instincts and behavioural traits original to their sex and see how the blossom.

Agreed!

Originally posted by: xyzzee

Vasantha, I agree with you for the most part. Let me also add that when 2 people marry, it is NOT just the girl who marries the boy's family. It is the coming together of 2 families....It is the marriage between 2 families....When I got married, I did not think my parents' family lost a member but rather that the number of members increased by one! Same with my hubby's parents! His family increased by one member. Life cannot be a one way road..

Ideally! But life is seldom ideal...😕

Originally posted by: krutilynn

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Originally posted by: chukkna

Hi Guys,

I read all the posts now. Weekend was busy and tough and didnt even log in.

I agree with II to some extent that a wife should respect her husband. But seems like he emphasized more on just wife respecting the husband. I have read "ramcharitamanas" several times. Sita ji was told to have faith in Ram ji, that he will come one day and rescue her. But why was she told that??? She was dipressed. She was told that way so that she wouldnt lose faith and wouldnt lose hope.

People take out many different menaings out of a situation. It is their understanding abilities.

In Ramcharitmanas, Tulsidas ji wrote
"Dhol, gavar, shoodra, pashu, naari,
Sakal taadana ke adhikari"

Literal meaning is that a shoodra, a vllager (an illiterate, dhol - drum, an animal and a woman should be beaten always" This is what I call reading in between the lines.

Why did he say so? Does that mean that a woman should always be beaten? NO. That was an illiterate world. All it means is, that these things should be kept under contol. By control, you should not take a negetive meaning. By control, Tulsidas ji meant was a good care. Tadna here doesnt mean bashing, it means care.

Shoodra, was an illiterate in those days. He was not educated and hence cannot understand to differentiate between good and bad.

Same with a gavar (an illiterate), who wouldnt understand the good and bad.

Dhol is a drum and everyone knows that to keep it in sur and taal you have to maintain it, you have to tighten some belts and loosen some, when needed according to the sur.

Pashu, an animal, woul ddo what you would ask it to do, if you just let it loose, it would go and eat grass in neighbours field, it doesnt know the limits and so t should be told the limit.

Naari: a woman is very emotional. Plus the woman was never educated. So they were taught a code of conduct and were taught to have a control over the situation.

There are many saying in Ramcharitmanas, that would create its own meaning if you just take the literal meaning of it.

Just to have an extension to II's words. I agree with II upto some extent that the wife should respect the husband, but the vice versa should always be true.

Woman is no more a weaker sex. It is the education that makes an distinction. Earlier days woman was not educated and she was treated specially. But slowly that turned into negetive and the special treatments took a negetive side effect.

In older days, woman was given rest in her first 3 days of menstural period. She was supposed to be completely at rest and dont do any work, as many have different complications. But in later time that turned into a curse. There was a time and still in some traditional families, that she is not allowed to do puja or be a part of any function in those 3 days. This is the negetive effect of a decent custom. I totally disagree with the custom where a woman is not allowed to do the puja in the first 3 days. Though these things have been induced in my head for ages. You are allowed to do every thing, having fun, watching TV name it, but you are not allowed to worship GOD. That has no logic.

Same with dowry. Once it was started with the rich father sending some amenities to provide comfort for her daughter at a new place, cos those people were unaware of her needs, turned into a forceful thing and many women were burnt alive for this custom. That is insane. That was the uneducated era.

This is the sweetness of education. It teaches you the logic to differentiate between the good and the bad. Man doesnt have to worry anymore abt a woman to keep her in control, cos she knows what is good and what is bad and how should she use her freedom.

The customs we cannot get rid of so easily, but the educated world will bring the change and I am hoping for the best. Many things have changed for good.

Coming to the part, about Abhi living at Simran's place. I think there is nothing like wfe's or husbands after marriage. It is theirs. I believe that the house was Abhi's also as Abhi house would be of Simran's after marriage. This is the couple's understandings.

My grandfather (mom's dad) was working in Jamshedpur, even after his retirement when he was in his 70's. My grandmother was sick and was staying with my uncle (mom's brother) in Hyderabad. My parents had my grandpa stay at our place and it was never like out of family. My dad's father passed away when I was 2 yrs old and my dad took care of all his 9 siblings as he was eldest. My mom worked all her life to make everyone comfortable. So in our family we had all uncles/aunts, my grandmother(dad's mom), my mom's sister( who remained unmarried, my parents supported her cos she is an asthama patient and doesnt have compatibilty with my uncle's family) and my grandfather (mom's dad). My mom has 2 brothers and there were many who asked why my grandfather is staying with his daughter when he has 2 sons? We had issues, but my dad never let anyone go. He always worshiped my grandfather and treated him like his own father. Infact all his siblings treat my grandpa as their dad. Do you think it is easy to manage such a big family without getting any comments from outsiders and without having any arguments where people who are always blamed are my parents.

But, never do I remember that my parents were in personal arguments in front of us. I dont remember a single time, when my parents would have discussed their financial issues in front of us. They always took advise from my grandparents. But never they got into an argument, when they didnt agree to elder's thought.

That is what is maturity. I dont say that Abhi and simran were not mature, but they were not mature enough. If you are quarreling in front of parents, they will surely butt in. They would not like any arguments. They would advice according their experience. It all depends on the couples. How they manage a relation is totally on their maturity.

What I wanted to say is that, there is nothing wrong in supporting your parents either side, but there should be certain code of conduct. If your parents need support you wouldnt deny the fact, be it your IL's or your parents.

My parents always wishes to come and stay here for some time and we do invite them, just as my IL's come and stay. It would be wrong to say that they cannot stay 6 months just cos they are parents of a girl. If needed, I would have them stay here forever. That is a seperate issue, on how your IL's would feel or how the other circumstances would turn out in the support.

I do not call it feminist thoughts, as I stll believe in equality. That's what my grandparents and parents taught us, not just by words but by being excellent examples in front of us. I would like to spread this to all educated people to think in a better way, to amend the customs and use a little of logic before blindly following the customs, be it anything. And try to use the education in its true sences.

This is all IMHO(in my humble opinion). I know there are points where people might disagree, but this is my undrestanding on different situations.

Jai Hind!!!

Chukkna, this was an excellent post!!! I wanted to give my 2 cents on the various points, but i think I agree with almost all of it so no need to...

However, I will say, that the menstrual cycle "treatment" of women is actually very scientific...the west is only awakening to the fact that these things happen during the menstrual cycle, whereas our Rushis were always aware of it. And for that reason, I will stick to the fact that no puja should be done at that time. However, things like Mala and Hanuman Chalisa are fine as no ritual required...Just IMHO......but great points u put up.👏

Jai Hind! 😊

Originally posted by: krutilynn

Awesome post, Chukks...on the above two points, here is my two cents:

Firstly, you are right about the period of rest that allowed a woman to rest to avoid complications. However there is a scientific background to this isolation. Not that in today's day and age it would be easy or practical to follow but i am expanding it here just for information's sake.

When a woman is in her period, she has a boost of hormones and her body is literally 'cleansing' of all the preparations it had made for a child - turns out that this is way more complicated than what most scientists have been able to identify because it involves every single gland in a woman's body. It is well known that if two or more women spend a lot of time together, their biological clocks start to coordinate. The reason behind this is that some of the hormones are meant to stimulate others around an individual...it would be embarassing to go into details here but i hope you all understand what i am trying to say. Also, since all the glands are at their active peaks during this short time every month, women are likely to be distracted, and add to that the physical discomfort. If you look at the ideals of 'satvik bhojan' you will identify that one of the most important ingredients are the way the food is prepared - there needs to be a complete focus on cooking and not on anything else. A menstrual woman is not likely to be able to focus in this manner. Same gets extended to the worship issue - it arises from the same concerns raised about anybody taking a bath before performing a puja. More than anything else, it is about hygiene. In modern day and age, we all have access to taking as many showers or baths as we need daily. But this was not true in the older times...hence the concern for "unclean" people attending the puja. Imagine being in your period and not being able to wash yourself for three-four days - it can be pretty nasally influential on others and thereby distracting! But i agree that this wouldnt hold true in today's day and age. I feel that given the modern concerns for hygiene and cleanliness (billion types of cleaning products) we should all accept that God has made all of us and hence cannot condemn our presence simply because of a biological aspect!!

On the subject of dowry - women were given stree-dhan by their parents so that if for any reason she became widowed or was disowned by her husband, she would not have to ask for any financial help or support. In fact the money and jewelry were considered to be sacrosanct by the in-laws family...they had no right over that money. And even if the girl wanted to donate it or give it to her in-laws, there were strict taboos and infamy to the in-laws household. However, it evolved over time to become what it has now - that the father gives the dowry to the in-laws. This twist is probably among the saddest ones in our cultural history!

Hope i did not go off on a tangent here...but just wanted to clarify and expand on Chukks thoughts. I just found out that my dissertation defense is going to be delayed by at least a month than what i expected so i am feeling too frustrated to work! 😭 Of course my wedding gets postponed also ANd my trip to India...sorry to post this here but it seems that all the people in this forum are people that i am close to and i found it better to just post this here than sending individual PMs.

nice posting kruts...v.informative....keep'em coming buddy...👍🏼....good luck with the dissertation....

peeps...i have to go and attend my daughters netball match, so can't post more, but hope u don't mind if i come back later and continue...(if i can!) cheers.....

Originally posted by: krutilynn

yup we are awaiting your response...with hands on keyboard 😉

u know what kruts....I bet u are as well! so then i took longer, so u get tired!!!😆

Interesting analysis ii..Regarding in-laws interfering, I think it is case dependent..The same could apply for a girl's in-laws too... I have known many in-laws who are so intefering and make life hell for th girl...So, it all depends on the situation/people, etc....And because it is not common place, does not mean it is not right:-) All depends on the understanding between each others' familiies....Of course if they are interfering, it won't work either way - boy or girls' family...

Originally posted by: innocentindian

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Originally posted by: innocentindian

u know what kruts....I bet u are as well! so then i took longer, so u get tired!!!😆

Not tired yet...keep em coming 😃

Originally posted by: innocentindian

Chukkna, this was an excellent post!!! I wanted to give my 2 cents on the various points, but i think I agree with almost all of it so no need to...

However, I will say, that the menstrual cycle "treatment" of women is actually very scientific...the west is only awakening to the fact that these things happen during the menstrual cycle, whereas our Rushis were always aware of it. And for that reason, I will stick to the fact that no puja should be done at that time. However, things like Mala and Hanuman Chalisa are fine as no ritual required...Just IMHO......but great points u put up.👏

Jai Hind! 😊

I have to disagree with you here also 😒. I dont see anything wrong in today's day and age to be included in any puja regardless of menstrual status. I refer to my post which was in reply of chukkna's - stating that with current day cleaning and access to showers, etc. no reason why women cannot be included in puja anymore. Also, in this day of fast food and quick fixes, how many people have 100% focus on God while performing puja anyways?? If we hold this to be true then many of us will never be able to perform puja because we in the kaliyug are incapable of reaching the level of 'satvikta' required to be peform a puja successfully. Just IMHO of course!

Originally posted by: innocentindian

Happy Women's Day to all the dear ladies here.... 😊 😛 😉 ....
...now this is one celebration you guys cannot wish me in return... 😆

Actually, we can - Happy Women's Day to you...go out there and support the women in your life a little more today - but since you are going to your daughter's game...you already have!!😃 Good going buddy!

writing my reply in the meantime....pls checck back later...

Ya, u see, i agree with u totally....the point i was trying to make (i accept i didn't write it well) is more or less the same u have made. U see, i feel that observing what was written in the scripture, she would be better able to support her husband. I have seen in real-life, that where she has not, she has then gone on to harm herself mentally and I feel this is because she herself lost out on her husband, who is an integral part of her. No, i dont agree with this statement. If she is not an integral part of his being, than he cannot be an integral part of hers, assuming that she is educated and independent enough. I dont want to sound crass, but if a woman has the guts, she doesnt need to curtesy to her man...if women would realize their potential we would not have so many sorry and sad cases of abuse in our society!

Basically, what the quotation I mentioned is saying is that the wife should not hanker so much after the material side of life as long as she can respect her husband, she will be OK. Whether she loves him or not cannot be forced upon her, but the respect side of it can. How can one force someone to respect them if they are behaving in an unrespectable manner?

I agree wholeheartedly that the man should also love and respect his wife, and kinda touched on that in my post. It is a 2-way street, and that is fine. But sometimes, if he is not able to "earn" her respect, then I just feel she should "force" herself and let the bad-times just pass. Losing a job is not equal to losing respect. However, if the man has lost his self-respect his wife can try and get him to rise above his own self or else simply accept him. However, it is the "force" aspect that i dont agree with *sorry II*

xyzee: read your stuff....sorry, I still don't agree...please don't take offense tho'.....u see, if my IL's came to stay with me for an extended period of time, then I wouldn't like it at all, cos I know they will interfere in my life. They already have. I have very bitter experiences, but wont recount these. From what I understand, in many communities, the girls parents don't even eat at the girls house, and I think the reason for this is that that way they don't stay there too long and spoil it for the girl and her life. These things do happen. However, I also think it is great the way your husband and you come across as being so supportive of each other. If everyone can strike that balance, then sure, why not let the girls parents live with the girl extensively. But I don't think it will ever be the norm no matter how educated people become, and neither do i think it should be commonplace. But that is just my opinion, and please don't think I am judging you or anyone else...(I'm sure u don't care anyway, but still, no offense intended..😊)...bottom line - i feel the boys parents should come first but the boy should also give full respect to his IL's as well. There can be extenuating circumstances and each situation should be considered independantly...Whoa...read my earlier post where i addressed this in more detail.

Ideally! But life is seldom ideal...😕 Actually, i would have to say that xyzzee's post does not refer to an ideal...it refers to reality.

What would be ideal is if people actually accepted this reality...and that, you are right II, happens infrequently. But it is more thanks to attitudes even in our generation and times that still give priority to one set of parents over the other - which is not acceptable. I mean one of the reasons why the western world is a little more easy to live in for women with equanimous education (between india and other countries) is the existence of equal parental treatment, the existence of belief in feminine potential...again in an ideal world, there would be equal opportunities for everyone which i dont think exists anywhere in the world...but like you said, II, life is seldom ideal!

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