THE THINKERS’’..TOPIC 1. - Page 2

I loved the point about the seats reservation. Actually I am against the concept. Not sure what that makes me. I would prefer if the reservation was for the elderly folks or pregnant ladies or people carrying kids, it could be man too...
If I see man sitting in a woman's seat in the bus, I will not make him get up because I do not see the need for me to be sitting. I can manage myself. But if I see another person in need, and I have done this before, I make them get up.
As far as dressing goes, most towns and villages are not used to seeing people dressed in western attires, I mean married folks. If I go to visit my grandparents, I will not wear jeans. I would probably wear a saree. It is my choice, my respect towards them. Dressing is an individual thing. Whatever we feel comfortable in is what we should wear.
Wearing traditional clothes will not replace the belief I have in the definition of feminism and neither will wearing western clothes deplete the respect I have for the Indian culture.
My husband would not step out of his house in shorts 10 years ago... because it was looked at wierdly, so I guess it applies to men too 😆

Well, I am against the reservation for women too - same as far as reservation in colleges for women used to be..But I think the original reasons were different and are no longer valid now.

About paternity leave - I agree, men need their share too. I heard some countries in Europe do have paternity leave, in fact I have heard that some countries have 1 year maternity leave for women and 1 year paternity leave for women!

Originally posted by: xyzzee

Well, I am against the reservation for women too - same as far as reservation in colleges for women used to be..But I think the original reasons were different and are no longer valid now.

True, the original reasons were different, but they need to change this rule, but you know what would happen, strikes and bus burnings and what not. There are always those elements in society that need an excuse to perceive things in the wrong manner.

Feminism has undergone a change. Earlier on it was all about being man's equal, but now it is more being a woman by herself as a human being who has her own ground and self respect and expects the same respect to be given to her as you give a man. It is not about becoming a man or competing with the men. It is equality in terms of respect, individuality and righteousness.

If the law of virginity applies to woman , it has to apply to a man as well. If a girl having boyfriends becomes a issue during a marriage, then a guy having had girlfriends before marriage should also have the same concern.

Just I do not want my daughter to sleep around with men, I do not want my son to be responsible for such acts either. One cannot outweigh the other.

Does Feminism and womens studies have any relation?

I agree with you Vazz about the girl and guy virginity part and I think that is true in many cases.. I do know parents are careful not to get their daughters married to flirts or 'womanizers'! But the only disadvantage is that a girl/woman can get pregnant and hence other issues/concerns arise while in many cases a guy just escapes scot free! Of course now-a-days with DNA, etc.. things have changed somewhat. Which is why my parents were always more concerned about my staying out late at night than my brother - we as women are more vulnerable. But as far as other issues/rights/opportnuties were concerned, my parents never discriminated.

Wow.
Some very imp points brought forward by you all.
I feel the same about seat reservation....the reservation should be for the elderly,pregnant women,any individual with a baby in arms.
But speaking for India,the reservation for ladies still exists,even in cities like Mumbai.It is more than welcome because of the nature of boarding the overcrowded trains.Might is right...so this reservation of not just seats,but a whole compartment is a good idea.It's more for their safety than chivalry.
As far as the clothes issue is concerned,I too feel it's more to do with culture.
Regarding men and women mingling at dinners and gatherings,In HKG atleast we do sit together,perhaps because of domestic help available.The women can also sit and be with the guests.Even in the family we are quite free with one another.

Shall be back with more as my dear friends give me new leads.
Akshata

On reservations and observations...
There are some basic biological differences in tendencies of men and women...I elaborate below:

how often have you seen or heard of a woman who gropes random males in crowded places trying to get a hold of his private parts?

Which man in the world has given birth?

Which man in the world can go get an artificial insemination with a view to having a child and raising him on his own?

Which man in the world has only one opportunity per month to have a child for only 30 years of his life?

The point of all this being that "equal opportunities", while sound good in theory need to be carefully defined. An ideal definition of feminism would be

A person who believes in equal economic and social opportunities for both men and women, taking into account the biological, instinctive, and cognitive differences between the two genders

That brings me to another observation that is often noted in psycho-socio-economic literatures - that of higher risks at higher skill levels...Again, let me elaborate...Assume that there is a woman who wants to take one year of parental leave for having a child, and she is among the top 10% people in a given large company. Now, if it is a man, he is less likely to take a year off fully knowing the implications of his absence in the company. While the woman has the right to make the personal decision of taking that leave, the chances are that she is paid a slightly lower wage than her male counterpart because of the "risky" behavior involving unplanned or planned leave taken from work as a result of family-focus. In a way, from an economic perspective, she is doing two jobs, and is maximizing her utility by contributing to both these efficiently (=minimal usage of resources). Heckman (a Nobel prize winner) is an economist who has said that if women had the same risks as men, the same level of efficiency, and the same uniform labor-force participation, than under the assumption that women make lower wages and the skill levels are at par, companies would prefer to hire only women in a free-market economy! Thus, the wage differential in jobs rises from the differences in preferences which are biologically and socially endowed upon women.

Bottom line - the basic argument of feminists is that "women dont need special reservations. Women need equal wages" gets completely shot if you look at it from a social productivity perspective.
Men are less willing to take generous parental leave even if it is available to them, because they realize instinctively that doing so places them in a "higher risk" category from the business establishment stand-point.

Also, on a slightly hilarious (again from an economists perspective) note - Cost-benefit analysis drives all cognitive behaviors in adults. Women are more instinctive in recognizing the true costs of a particular behavior, whereas men are more likely to overestimate the costs, and underestimate the benefits. However, when it comes to acting upon these analyses, women are more likely to overestimate the benefits, underestimate the costs despite instinctively knowing the 'true' costs, and act contrary to rational expectations!!

Well, i know i have probably bored half of you to tears, and the other half is scratching their heads going "what is she talking about!!" Well, point out particulars, and i will try and expand in a more "readable" dialogue 😃

Krtylynn wrote:Quote[The point of all this being that "equal opportunities", while sound good in theory need to be carefully defined. An ideal definition of feminism would be

A person who believes in equal economic and social opportunities for both men and women,taking into account the biological,instinctive,and cognitive differences between the two genders.]Quote

Wow!
I think I understood what you are trying to say. 😊 but you did sound like an economist. 😉
Biological differences have to be taken into consideration.
I agree that in certain positions,the management will definitely consider the consequences of hiring a woman for a job.But some use it as an excuse for not giving certain positions to women.
Like Krutylynn mentioned,the woman can choose not to stay away from work.In fact,in modern times,most women are very professional and would know the risks of staying away from work for long periods.

But sadly,most ideals are only theoretical.Companies are run for profits and how many are going to think in the interest of the society at large.That's why the government of every country must take initiative and provide equal opportunities.They should have laws that uphold womens'rights.

Government cannot force laws on the private companies and Govt cannot give the same amount of opportunities in their sector. Private companies have much more to offer. Which is why I guess a lot of us are opting for private. Which would be the areas of work, where the discrimination would occur?
I am of the opinion that we do not see this in the IT, medicine, teaching worlds. Areas where physical work is needed, I guess it is possbile to have this discrimination in these days?
I guess when women work as regular hourly workers in textile mills or factories and then also in the construction site, this kind of discrimination is still occuring. These are again private factories and govt cannot puts its restraint on it, or has it?

Biology of course is a big factor:-) As I mentioned in one my posts, women are women and men, men. We don't have to become THE MEN to be a feminist or dress like them.. Same regarding the pregnancy issue...

I was however surprised to hear that quite a few men in Europe do utilize the paternity leave - only of course if the wives are working...

Originally posted by: vazz

Government cannot force laws on the private companies and Govt cannot give the same amount of opportunities in their sector. Private companies have much more to offer. Which is why I guess a lot of us are opting for private. Which would be the areas of work, where the discrimination would occur?
I am of the opinion that we do not see this in the IT, medicine, teaching worlds. Areas where physical work is needed, I guess it is possbile to have this discrimination in these days?
I guess when women work as regular hourly workers in textile mills or factories and then also in the construction site, this kind of discrimination is still occuring. These are again private factories and govt cannot puts its restraint on it, or has it?

I agree that the Govt. can't enforce laws.That's why it should take upon itself to lead by example.And ofcourse I'm talking of developed countries.

Because of the biological factor,certain sectors would prefer male labor.Like Vasantha said,IT,Medicine,Teaching need not worry about this.It's more brain than brawn that is required.😊

Don't think this topic generated too much interest....guys,come up with something else...maybe we need not wait till Monday.

Cheers

Akshata