Originally posted by: Meself
@Lady Macbeth
You are mightily confusing between the fictional and real aspect of both these terms of "Aryan" and "Dravidian". Before anything else get this straight that these terms Aryans and Dravidians are no longer used among historians and anthropologists; reason being they don't signify any racial group but a linguistic group i.e., groups speaking similar language. When we say Dravidians it actually the Tamil speaking group being talked while Aryans are flag bearers of Indo-European languages of which Sanskrit is a part of. So Mahabharat, Ramayan, Bhagwat Puran and others don't shed light on nobility of Aryans it rather talks of socio-political structure of that time frame.
I'm confusing nothing. 😳 Don't worry about that. I know you know that too ! 😉 You couldn't have missed my reply to another member here , where in fact , it was I who was stressing upon keeping this fact clear in our minds , that this is a completely fictional show and these races , as such that are shown here , are completely the product of the writer's fertile mind ! 😉
By the way , the terms Dravids and Aryans are still very much used amongst historians and research regarding the same , and the origin of Indu valley civilization and origin of Aryans are still under heavy research , with no clear verdict being given in either way.Aryan invasion theory is incorrect . No such war as is shown in this show had ever taken place. There's a time gap of at least 300 years between the fall of Indu valley civilization and rise of new society , whether they came from outside or from far north of India itself.
It should also be wise to keep in mind that the entire geography of this land and it's landmarks were completely different , and entailed a far greater area .
But since this show has no connection with real history , can we not talk about it and keep it to the show please ?? This conversation is getting redundantly irrelevant , since we both know it's complete fiction.
I'm sorry but I must say there was no need for this large confusion clearing , because there was no confusion to begin with. 😃Now this particular saga takes inspiration from a discarded theory propogated by Britishers, the Aryan Invasion Theory. While it's ruled out that Aryans had invaded and driven out the Indus Valley People, it is nowhere denied that they did make their decent from present day Iran. The Boghazkoi or Mitanni inscription in Iran is a testimony of the fact. Now let's get back to the show per say.
This part is not proven yet , but it's just an existant theory , a group of researchers hold the belief that Aryans were , in fact , resident of far north of Indian subcontinent , and were NOT ousiders.
They are making use of a discarded theory but at no point they have refuted the origin of Aryans from Iran. If we are to take that into consideration then the very debacle of survival is blown out of the water. Iran and areas adjoining the same isn't hostile to human inhabitance. There is water, the land is fertile and it can very easily sustain life. So how are Aryans refugees in any manner? One. Two. The Aryans (in the show of course) want to establish a land called Aryavart that is run by their views and way of life. And for the same they want to uproot the Dravidians. Because according to them they aren't noble enough.
Like I mentioned above , they've every right to spread around in search of a lush green land that is fresh and appropriate to build up their civilization. Please tell me by which logic , they're wrong in doing so ? I keep asking this , but since you think this very basic right of theirs in wrong , I'd refrain from making it any messier , and let's agree to completely disagree. Their original land may not be totally hostile but there's nothing wrong in searching for better lands. That's what we all do, search for better things. It's our fundamental human , no , in fact animal right to do so !
Let's dissect this statement for once. They reached the conclusion of Dravidians being barbaric, brutal, cruel and cunning because they ill-treated the Aryan spies who were caught by them. My question is how were the Dravidians wrong? Espionage is a serious crime. And it is still in the modern setting. Stealing away the confidential information about military and it's infantry, about the economy, polity, society and fortification is an offence. Every state has a spy system, yes but espionage from others is a criminal offence. It might sound hypocritical but that is the truth. Even in Mahabharat, that possibly talks of first spy Kachcha, espionage is punished harshly. So what Dravidians did to the spy troupe wasn't wrong politically. Yes that could be interpreted as a ruthless and barbaric act but it nowhere is wrong because the Aryans had come to steal intelligence and the Dravidians reacted in a manner that they deemed correct. Ruthlessness is the first demand for power establishment, had that not been the case every ruler that we have heard of in our history would have become the king by offering an olive branch. Sadly that ain't the case.
So basically by the above part , I trust we agree that during those times , which were brutal, ruthless barbaric times , and modern dichotomy of right and wrong and moral science won't apply and shouldn't be applied to that age. Going by that same logic , you completely agree with me that the Aryans , being product of the same time frame , are totally within their rights to wage war on the Dravids and we can't apply America waging war on Afghanistan type of parallel here !
Or you might be trying to say, Dravidians are justified in resorting to inhuman cruelty under the excuse of .. " Those were the times when such things were common norms and practiced in all societies around the world.. " ( Which by the way is truth ) , but Aryans are not justified to use force and resort to war ! How and why exactly ! 😲Now let's get back to point two. So the Aryans here believe that the Dravidians are not noble enough and that their thinking of creating Aryavart that is run with patriarchy is correct. And for the very purpose they want to uproot the Dravidians. We had Varundev saying he will destroy the Dravidians. So it is safe to assume that their basic intent is to first destroy the way of life Dravidians have known and then establish their thoughts and opinions on them. How can anyone say my thinking is better than yours? So gaian how are the Aryans entitled to a land that has been nurtured by someone else for more than 400 years?
Yes Varundev said that and he said that after he heard from the only surviving member of their espionage group Abrook , how his father was brutally murdered by the Dravidians !
Before than no mention of any uprooting .
As for thinking patriarchy is correct , so does the Dravids think men are weaker than women , though their men counterparts take part in war literally " Kandhe se kandha mila kar. " , Devasena proudly mentioned it in front of the Aryans in her 1st meet with them.
In my opinion , this is thoroughly wrong as well.
But I won't judge either of the clans for this particular mentality. It's inherent tendency of every clan, every race to think that they're superior ! It's but natural.
@Magenta, so your question applies as much to Dravids as to the Aryans !
Please explain the " nurturing " part 😆 , you don't mean to say farming and converting forest lands into farm lands , do you ? Because I still don't see any reason or logic in giving the Dravids any credit for reaping benefit of an extremely fertile lavish land ! Any race would and could do that if they've this kind of land in their controls ! So yeah , that's that !
Three. About creating the land. Let's take a leap and come to present times. India has huge reserves of uranium. One of the largest in the world. So that should make us biggest nuclear energy nation no? Sadly we don't know how to tap that uranium and use it for our daily needs. So the land is resourceful but we don't know how to make use of the same. Now lets go back to 2500 B.C., when urbanization of Sothi culture into Indus Valley Civilization was happening (again I am making use of it because the series at no point has refuted the claim). The land was fertile, there was water and the people were able to tap that into their daily lives. So the land belongs to them. Having resources is not enough. You need to be able to tap it into use other wise it is just a non-performing asset. The Indus Valley people, the Dravidians in the case of this series not only tapped the fertility of the land into serving them but also had provisions to control the flood water and use it for irrigation in areas with less water supply ( read Rajasthan, about the flood water control then the computer imagery has shown the cities of Indus Valley was created with great engineering might that could withstand flood and use the water for irrigation purposes).
@Bold, now I can see you're either truly confused or you're trying to confuse me . You're again bringing real facts into a fictional world . 😕😆 That too after beginning this entire reply with a clarification against the opposite.
The things you wrote above , were they shown at any point in this show ? In that my memory is failing me, please provide me the link of the episode(s) , where the Dravidians of this show are shown to be participating in any such activity ! 😆
Since that is not the case , I can safely say, they didn't put any hard work "nurture" the land , hence this land doesn't belong to them in any whatsoever way! They were just fortunate enough to have this land all to themselves for the last 400 years ! More luck than these people deserve.
All the hard work that I see in this show , are by the Aryans, so this land rightfully belongs to them !
They created an empire, carved it from stone and sand. Hence that land was created by them. Saying the Aryans don't need it, had that been the case they could have settled anywhere while making a decent from Iran. But no, they chose the land of Sapt Sindhu, why may I ask. Well it was because an empire was already carved there.
Do please suggest where this any where might have been ?? 😳
Once they get the land , this hard working race won't put up any effort and won't have to do any thing because there was already an existing empire ?? 😕
After a huge war of this calibre , what will remain of that empire ?? Carnage and ruins ! They'll have to build it up from the scratch once again and they can .
Worth can't be decided on seeing people, it is decided on action. The Dravidians here have toiled on the land to make it into a formidable empire. They deserve this land much more. Also the Aryans here call themselves noble, haven't done anything so far to achieve that tag. Varundev respected the code of conduct and women. Abrook to a certain extent but did other Aryans share the same sentiment. One of the Sabhasad had implied what the majority of Aryans think about women. So against how are they noble?
@Bold, IN THIS SHOW ( I repeat , in this show, plz do not tell me about real history 😳 , it's nothing got to do with real Dravids and by the way , there's absolutely no historical hint , let alone proof , that there were any matriarchal civilization in Indus valley . In fact , most probably they didn't have monarchs as such . It was a much later concept. ) , Dravids have done nothing to deserve this land . So it doesn't belong to them. Three. Hahuma's hatered. Given all the facts stated above don't you think she is justified in her stand? She is entrusted with the duty to protect the Dravidians. So she will stand rigid by her thoughts. Her counsel is what had made Dravidians survive 400 years. Chamundi had been challenging the same. Do you really think she would have accepted it just like that?
Umm.. please don't tell me you're supporting Hahuma for her selfish motive of preserving decaying norms .
Protect from what ?? From better , more balanced philosophy and life style ?? Because that's what only she was doing. If her true fear was Aryans annihilating DRavidians she could've still allowed the marriage to happen under strict terms and conditions.
She simply feared any change , any growth. She proved to be curse for their civilization.
And let's look into a hypothetical situation wherein Hahuma had agreed to Chamundi marrying the Arya man. Would the Aryans accept the way of life, the matriarchal setting of Dravidians, when their misogyny runs bone deep?
The above line in bold shocked me to the core ! 😲 Why the hell would Aryans accept the way of life , the matriarchal setting of Dravidians ?? Why should they ? The very fact that you think they should bodes ill for the fate of this conversation !
Let's also talk about the deeply rooted misandry in Dravidians , At least Varundev , who sort of represents the Aryans here always speaks with full respect about women . But Devasena, the literal " Dravid shakti" completely disappoints in this regard ! 🤢 Her dialog of " Men weaker than women " was scandalous !
so would they've accepted .
Why'd they ? 😲When two clans are bonding , each must learn from the other , or else it is pointless and no real growth is possible.
Think of all plausible situations. Their is a patriarchal society, that simply refuses the stand of a woman. Not just that they don't even have the concept of a female goddess (again in the series, Rigveda mentions Savitri and Gayatri later in the concept of Adi-Shakti/Adi-Parashakti who is wife of Shiva and sister Vishnu came into being) would ever accept to bow down before Mahishi? If the Aryans had submitted to Dravidians accepting them as overlords asking for their cultural identity (like in the case of Parsis) the clash would have never happen. But with marriage to Chamundi they would come in the periphery of power and we know how power corrupts. So if Hahuma had given a nod to the marriage would the identity of Dravidians remain safe? I don't think so.
Four. The war. Dravidians never ventured beyond the Sapt Sindhu. They were more interested in safe guarding their lands.
Simply because they've more than enough food on their plates ! 😆
No credit given there ! Had the Aryans had this land , would they've ventured to capture outside lands ?? Nope !
It was the Aryan army that blew the cinch for war, the Dravidian simply answered back. And answered in a cunning manner. Remember Arvamudan had said theirs everything is at stake. And when everything is at stake no rules are taken into consideration. For defence the offence comes across as the best tool. The Dravidians declared war only when they saw it was the only way to drive them out.
Sorry , that's not what happened. Both parties were preparing and declaring war at the same point. I just watched that episode of war again to confirm it.
So I don't even need to disagree here. It's not truth.
The Aryans here, can claim themselves to be noble and what not but it doesn't make them so. They are not refugees running away from a war torn land. They are not victims of fate who had homes in barren land. They arrived at Sapt Sindhu to usurp a land that they feel would be Aryavart without taking into consideration who lives there. They keep telling themselves that their cause is blessed and noble because it is the Lord Indra who has asked them to do so. But can they justify the same? The Dravidians have established an empire through their hard work, carved a way of life and are reaping the benefits of the same. That land belongs to them because they have worked for it. Why should they let anyone take it away? That is prime reason why I said that Aryans are noble in fight but not in intent while Dravidians are noble in their intent but not in their fight. Right or wrong is a subtle thing because morality is a subtle thing. But yes nobility is awarded and earned through deeds and by making screeching noises about the same. The Aryans have landed on the latter unfortunately.
Completely disagree with the above part, and why , that has already been said many times in many ways . * Once again the feel of redundancy 🥱 *
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