Can Culture Be Superior? - Page 21

Originally posted by: sunp

What you quoted as culture is not really culture but the extravagent lifestyle by a selected few, for each one of those there is a Telegi, Udit Narayan, Natwar Singh, Jawaharlal Nehru....I dont know what you are tlaking about here..

America is far more than what you see in New York or San Franscico or MTV. Indian culture is great, but the current generin tation does not find it attractive, that is why thousands and thousands of them flock to America to make a future for themselves, never to go back to their own country/culture, which even though great does not gurantee them the secure Roti, Kapda and Makaan for themselves and their future generation...Its only going to worse than what you see in NY, CA since it will only increase in naivete, poverty, lack of ambition/drive as you move to the south or the mid-west.... Given the american philosophy i dont expect the south or midwest to be culturally rich for any reason....

Even the population that stays back wants to emulate everything American, they want the malls, they want the fast music, they want the skin show.Its more like the initial glitz.. it wears out eventually nothing really big... once you realize all in the mall are all there you fool u and steal your money.

That is why people dont know what a movie Shwas is about but knows all about Monster's Ball😉 they wouldnt have known monster ball either...until it got an oscar....as for sause i havent overheard of that same even in long whispers...and you have some esoteric group of junta going ga-ga over it...😆

Over and Out

PS: If I offended anyone, apologies, not that I mean it, I am an Indian after all😃... Indians and its culture is too strong to get the shock of awakening which americans go through... but the part which is ironically detestable is that the critics have good reason to criticize the indian culture... but hardly any to delineate them from it and adopt the "crazy" american culture...😆.. After being a canadian citizen deepa mehta stills comes to oscar in a sari...😆 and mostly all indians dying for indian food, teaching thier kids tabla and bharat natyam instead of jazz and ballet.....

Infact more than pages and pages of text - this irony says it all....😆

Originally posted by: mermaid_QT

I agree Rahul. i have the same questions for qwerty.
I dont see THAT as american culture at all. 😆 & what is Indian culture then? A MIX of something we live to pat our backs as UNITY in DIVERSITY? me and my husband, both Indians, feel that we don't share much more than passport issued by same country.. We don't pray similar, don't eat similar food, don't wear similar clothes and yet have something we RIGHTLY call OUR culture. Similarly, the potpourri as they are, they (americans) have a culture too.
Whatever you described as loose behaviour, is that what you find in american culture? that is just clothing behaviour. now let us discuss that.

keeping bollywood aside, well, i see lot of its influence in real life, so i refuse to keep bollywood aside 😉. devdas chudiyaan, saloni saree, sunehri belly button, sindoor tere naamka bindis wth!!!🤢🤢 show off... 😕

You have commented on clothing behaviour, hence i did. qwerty, whatever you described has nothing to do with americn culture in my opinion.

Photo: S. Subramanium

https://www.hindu.com/mag/2007/03/11/stories/2007031100150500 .htm

another reference:

In this bold, illuminating and superbly readable study, India's foremost psychoanalyst and cultural commentator Sudhir Kakar and anthropologist Katharina Kakar investigate the nature of 'Indian-ness'. What makes an Indian recognizably so to the rest of the world, and, more importantly, to his or her fellow Indians? For, as the authors point out, despite ethnic differences that are characteristic more of past empires than modern nation states, there is an underlying unity in the great diversity of India that needs to be recognized.

Looking at what constitutes a common Indian identity, the authors examine in detail the predominance of family, community and caste in our everyday lives, our attitudes to sex and marriage, our prejudices, our ideas of the other (explored in a brilliant chapter on Hindu-Muslim conflict), and our understanding of health, right and wrong, and death. In the final chapter, they provide fascinating insights into the Indian mind, shaped largely by the culture's dominant, Hindu world-view.

Drawing upon three decades of original research and sources as varied the Mahabharata, the Kamasutra, the writings of Mahatma Gandhi, Bollywood movies and popular folklore, Sudhir and Katharina Kakar have produced a rich and revealing portrait of the Indian people.

https://www.penguinbooksindia.com/Books/BookDetail.asp?id=648 4

I found this interesting articles and I posted them!!😊

wishes,

Mythili

Originally posted by: lighthouse

Thanks Myth for the reference to books...It would throw some insight to life in India for someone like me who hasn't lived in India.. May be add these books to your books thread?

Last week I read about the above author when I was seriously googling for a person!!! Interestingly, I saw his reference and his book in The Hindu paper.So I posted it. Let it be released in Market in a full fledged manner then we can get it in DM😊!!!

Wishes,

Mythili

Originally posted by: chatbuster

our values have stood the test of time? under what circumstances? isolated for milleniums from exposure to the outside world! that was my point to qwerty though he seemed to have missed it. foreigners came, conquered, modified or got absorbed into our culture, then left. only in the modern age have we really begun to look outside, and we can already see how our test of "standing" the "test of time" is doing. that and the example of tribals i gave who hold on to primitive culture was how i derive my point that longevity cannot be a sound criteria for superiority. a test against other ideas might be a criteria and that's a test we are only now starting to have.

religion and spirituality? yes, i already said that. in fact i went further and said that if i care to i can argue for all of that on laws of physics and the universe as we know it today. it's a great religion. but for whatever reason, our cultural practices today often suck. and i had a long laundry of those cultural ills. for every ill you can point out in western society, i'll give you two back home.

ideas borrowed from our religion? sure. but what have we made of them ourselves? i dont see a lot of that put in practice when we get into the ills that are so commonplace in indian society. we also keep holding out our religion as the source of our great cultural practices. but as we see in the case of the nazis, religion and the love for a fine "cultural" life did not make them a cultured lot when it came to perhaps the most important cultural aspect- human values.

regarding books etc and the other stuff posted by qwerty: sorry, that's more idiosyncratic than the horrible stuff which goes on back home. idiosyncratic behavior can hardly be classified as culture.

Originally posted by: punjini

Bumping for CB!

oh thx. 😊 on the points, sorry but i still dont buy the longevity argument- primitive tribal cultures too have longevity but they are not what one shld be emulating. of course, someone can correct me if i am wrong. 😛also on balance, i'd rather not comment on singapore culture with or without it's latest family planning schemes😆

fwiw, i think what we have at various points in this topic are a couple of issues- holding desi-lifestyle out as something great and our stereotypical assessments of US.

first, i think desi life-style is something born out of a middle-class existence, not choice. that's why i think life-style, not "values" is the better term. back home, most places have people living on top of each other. step out of the house and there'll be 30 kids playing cricket or football. lots of spontaniety and unstructured time which makes for good bonding. folks can be content knowing there are other kids around who can take care of things. and there's always an elderly person or neighbor somewhere if needed who can keep tabs when the parents are going to be away. all good stuff. but if you think about it, you might see that a lot of this good stuff actually stems from middle-class existence.

in the more affluent posh colonies, we have gates and guards outside every home since crime is such an issue. physical distances might still not be huge, but mentally you're in your own world. given half a chance, however almost everyone would opt for that lonelier but more successful existence even in our land of high thinking/ traditional living. ironic, isnt it? people who so loudly proclaim superiority of our life-style, but would make the opposite choice in a heartbeat.😊

now, let's get to understanding the US in ways that go beyond childish caricatures. yes, what is most often screwed up in the west is the inner-city life of gangs and drugs. but that stems mostly from poverty and is probably the case with the slums back home too. what is also apparent is that this is a society on wheels, which doesnt have a whole lot of time. but then blame it again on the opportunity people have to get ahead, and not be consigned forever to a life of mediocrity or poverty.

beyond that, we have US suburbia and it's soccer moms. these are moms who spend their time carting their kids from one game to another, one activity to another, all week long. it's a pretty tough life if you ask me, and it reflects on the desire to do the best for the kids. does this show lack of family values to someone? go to more affluent communities and you'll find fathers playing golf with their kids, bonding not only as father-son but also as friends. not exactly the scene i find with many rich dads back home, too busy with their clubs and socialising and scandals. there's also a strong sense of community service, volunteer work, charity, all of which point to something greater than the selfish society that is so often the superficial understanding of western values.

Originally posted by: punjini

Do you mean to say that the concept of two families getting married (Indian culture) as opposed to just two individuals tying the knot (western culture) is a product of middle-class existence? I think this is quite widespread in India. A massive exercise involving the gaining of a new set of uncles, aunts, cousins, brothers and sisters!

of course not everything is a product of middle-class existence. yes, the two families come together at least during the wedding, but the fights start soon after almost inevitably... Still it's a good practice imo and i'd vote for it too.

The very fact that Indians have a different name for every relationship, be it nana, nani, dada, dadi, chacha,chachi, mausi, mausa, devar etc etc indicates that each of these relationships are valuable to us. We don't categorise the entire group as uncle or aunt. There is a nephew of mine in US who looks blankly at me each time I ask him to explain how I am related to him. He is just not interested and I find every other kid in US just like him - disinterested in family ties. But if I talk to a kid in India, he or she is able to accurately explain the relationship and this becomes the beginning of a lively conversation.

not the case as often as your experience here would suggest. But i agree that hindi is more expressive than english, reflecting the "richer" life we lead in many ways.

Agree with you about affluent posh colonies versus middle class neighbourhoods - these exist everywhere. Agree about charity work, community service etc. I know many Americans who did so much volunteer work during the tsunami etc.

various rebuttals aside, imo the US is indeed one of the most charitable societies on earth. sort of ironic that they are perhaps rightly considered to be individualistic and materialistic, yet have enough caring for strangers to give freely of their time, energy and money.

I really don't know if all the views about American culture are as stereotypical as they are made out to be. There is something decadent, something retrogressive about the culture which is being adopted quickly by other cultures, without knowing what they are doing. Take sex for instance. American children in school talk about sex and try it out as early as they can. They know all about reproduction and even homosexuals. There was this cute looking American kid who visited India years ago. On his insisting that he wanted to sit in an auto-rickshaw, his father took him in one. The auto driver found the kid cute, patted the kid's head and said "bahut pyaara bachha hain" before starting the auto. The kid asked his father "Dad, is he gay?" Incidentally, this kid is also my nephew! I couldn't get over the fact that the kid knew what being gay was all about and secondly he had mistaken a simple, affectionate gesture as having sexual overtones!

i think this might be just the case of a kid who's trying to act shocking and look cute in the process. but of course you'd know better. that said, we have right-wing moral conservatives in the US (mainly republicans) as well. for some strange reason, much as desis might be conservative themselves, they usually do not care for these conservative guys. so much for what we want!

"American beauty" which won many Oscars was acclaimed by critics in all American newspapers because it reflected American society so well. Look what it showed about a typical dysfunctional American family. This is not a childish stereotype.

it's one aspect and it's one portrayal, much the same as some of our own award-winning bollywood movies are.

Sometimes I feel happy that we Indians are considered conservative. Great! It has helped us to preserve our culture to whatever extent. I think I have mentioned before about how I often hear western men complaining that Indian women don't fall for their charms - meaning you know what. By and large, the middle-class Indian man and woman doesn't believe in pre-marital sex. One-night stands and sex for fun is not really a typical Indian's cup of tea. Now I know you can start giving examples to the contrary but I would regard them as exceptions. Yes, our culture doesn't teach us to make ourselves easily available to the opposite sex.

lots more to good culture than sexual proclivities and frequencies. in any case, while we have trouble "opening up" to westerners, we seem to be having very little problem doing so back home with other desis. 😉witness the rain dance events to chivas regal nites to kids hanging outside nightclubs at 3 am.

Now I wouldn't condemn everything about American culture. You rightly pointed out many good things. So I would vote for a good blend of the two cultures, with a greater emphasis on the Indian component. Though culture is too wide a term, I would say that I use my moorings in Indian culture as a source of strength and wisdom - not as an excess baggage. It gives me confidence, it keeps me rooted, it gives me a unique identity.

sort of proves the point i set out to make on this thread that yes, there can be a superior culture. take the good, throw away the bad, mix em up, and serve it. theoretically that should get us a culture superior to it's own former self and superior imo to others. 😆

Originally posted by: mythili_Kiran

The rest my dear myth and CB is borrowed from somewhere so doesnt appear uniformly across.....😆

For any culture to be robust... it needs to have a good foundation.....then it has to be accepted by the majority... What you see here is a mass conformance to aberrated values which nobody individually conforms to.... which is why you hardly find.. americans referring to their's as a culture...ever heard an american use the term..."in our culture"....??? The only thing I see which americans can differentiate themselves is "doing things strangely"... so if the world is going north whereas they will go south... and just for the heck of it.. infact sometimes without reason...😆

Originally posted by: sunp

You are ridiculing everything american not everything but the use of culture in american context...😊which is barely 200-300 year old, however all the same flaws exist in the Indian culture, and that you call as pristine, To the contrary, something that has been around for 2000 years should be more refined/polished, and it is just the same😃 2000 years!!!.... thats good enough a basis for superiority....

Second, you claim you have no idea what South or Midwestern region brings to the table, you are just speaking about things that you have not even encountered or read or know about, That is similar to what most American considers India to be a land of snakes and monkey's and elephants running on the streets, come to think of it, we actually do have cows on major interesection 😆😆.. think about it... indian custom traditions change every 25 km... doesnt mean the culture changes... so if you selling that argument better give a solid example rather than general Time zone kinda demarcations...Just had a glimpse of the Lousiana (south) culture during katrina.... does it get any worse u mean?

To Ace it, most of the Indians want to ape everything western, in clothing, in arts, in literature, in science, in every facet of lifestyle(Even the Beedi's are replaced by Cigaratte's these days 😆, Mosambi Narangi has been replaced by King Fisher 😆), so we know who is winning the culture war. All this discussion then just becomes academic😉..nothing to do with american.. we have been enamoured by west for long.. but our culture has never perished ....for did you say 2000 years?😊