God paradoxes! - Page 10

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3365 thumbnail
Posted: 16 years ago
#91

Originally posted by: return_to_hades


Novel = Fiction? 😕 The Diary of Anne Frank was fiction? Grr these conspirators. 😡 I thought novels could be fictional, non-fictional, biographical, inspired by real events.

True history can be made into a novel. G-Unit is not denying the historical existence of people mentioned in these scriptures. But she is reiterating the fact that these books were written by humans, human beings who embellished history to make it appealing to the times. The Iliad and Odysseus, The Oresteia, The Epic of Gilgamesh, these are all embellished historic accounts, albeit from ancient times therefore of lowly importance. Besides there is also no reason why scripture should not have dramatic qualities of a best seller novel.

there r no embellishments to the story or ram and krishna. we have evidence of what they are all over india. scriptures may have dramatic qualities but that does not make it a novel. no they r written to teach the way ot life to its followers and they r books of worship or sacred book.

Yes Rama and Krishna existed. I never denied their existence being historic fact. I'm skeptical of their divinity, because even archaeological evidence does not prove it. You are free to believe in them in whatever way you please. To me they will always be moral parables for guidelines.

if ram is not god then how are the rock floating in the indian ocean. do u have any scientific reason for that? no. so till the time u cannot prove they r not god, u cannot say it. believe sure, but that does not give u the right to call our holy books novel. everyone has their beliefs but that does not mean u can insult or ridicule the others'. u dont think they r divine people, fine. but it does not give u the right to insult other's religious beliefs.

When some people read scriptures, they take these lead characters literally to be Gods. Others take them to be symbolic of God and moral values due to the ideal characteristics people possessed. Its a matter of personal perspective and choice. 😊
some people for u but its millions of people across the world. ramayan and mahabharat r written by human being right but they character r not human being. and not we do not take them to be god but we know they r god. if u dont believe it fine keep it to your self. it affects our sentiments to question their being a god or not.

Fine. You know them to be God. You have the right to express your belief that they are God. But I think as a skeptic of the divine mortal concept, I have the freedom to express it. I do not think why I should have to keep skepticism to myself. Skepticism is not an insulting or negative quality. I do not expect people to keep faith to themselves because it affects my skepticism.
fine i dont want u to think of them as god or question their existance but refrain from ridiculing our holy books on a public forum. till now it had been fine. i ONLY have problem with holy books being compared to novel.u know it is belived to keep evil away from u if u keep these holy books with u. then how do u compare it to novel?


novels can be adopted from history but not epics or books of worship. yes an idea can be picked up but calling an epic a novel i dont know how can u justify it. she is not calling a novel inspired from a ramayan or mahabharat a novel but an epic, a book of workship a novel.
now about

You call them scriptures and follow them as such. I call them books and read them as such. I'm not denying you, your freedom, your choice or your faith.
nor am i denying u your freedom of speech or beleifs or even expressing them, but in a respectable manner.
3365 thumbnail
Posted: 16 years ago
#92

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

I wouldn't be surprised if folks some thousands of years later start calling Gandhi, Nehru, Obama gods and start worshipping them. Oh, wait a minute, some blacks here in the States already call Obama a messiah😆 Does that make all these mortals THE FORCE - I think not. Do I respect Gandhi, Mother Teresa and others like them for doing good for other mortals - of course I do. Same goes for those mortals who, per some texts, existed centuries ago and were looked up to by folks not only in that era, but in this era too. But I absolutely refuse to ignore their shortcomings by calling a guy -who abandoned his own pregnant wife because of some stupid hearsay - maryada puroshottam and worshipping the other who was known to be a flirt and have a harem ful of wives - irrespective of all their good deeds in their lifetime. Others may want to justify these actions by allocating some superior motives to them but not me.



yes ram did abandon his wife but did not marry again. can a mortal do that? no. still u dont belive in ram. call urself a non hindu or whatever itsyour choice your belief, but it does not automatically give u the right to insult our books of worship, our sentiments and beliefs. just like we r not calling u "papi" for not believing in god.

P.S.- sorry for interrupting between u and lalitha. i never participated in this topic bcoz i believe to each their own.so u can carry on with the other debate now.
Edited by return_to_hades - 16 years ago
sitakshii thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Stunner Thumbnail + 4
Posted: 16 years ago
#93

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

I wouldn't be surprised if folks some thousands of years later start calling Gandhi, Nehru, Obama gods and start worshipping them. Oh, wait a minute, some blacks here in the States already call Obama a messiah😆 Does that make all these mortals THE FORCE - I think not. Do I respect Gandhi, Mother Teresa and others like them for doing good for other mortals - of course I do. Same goes for those mortals who, per some texts, existed centuries ago and were looked up to by folks not only in that era, but in this era too. But I absolutely refuse to ignore their shortcomings by calling a guy -who abandoned his own pregnant wife because of some stupid hearsay - maryada puroshottam and worshipping the other who was known to be a flirt and have a harem ful of wives - irrespective of all their good deeds in their lifetime. Others may want to justify these actions by allocating some superior motives to them but not me.



*viewbies note - The content of this post has been edited. This tirade was unnecessary and uncalled for. This post was nothing but an assault on another IF member. There is absolutely no reason or justification to come and post simply to attack a forum member for their views. Once you have reported what you found offensive, you can wait for the Dev team to appropriately resolve it. You do not need to make matters worse by attacking people on the public forums*
Edited by return_to_hades - 16 years ago
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
#95
As for Ramji asking his wife to go through Agni Pareeksha and then abandoning her on the basis of doubt:
If you people who believe Shri Ram to have such a degrading personality claim that Ramji asked Sitaji to undergo the Agni Pareeksha and abandoned her because he had doubt in her, then you clearly have not read either Valmiki Ramayana or Tulsidas's Ramcharitmanas, or you based your views on movies and serials. I too love watching mytho shows, as is clear by my siggies, but to take these shows as authentic sources for scriptures is not done.
In Valmiki Ramayana:
Ramji never asked Sitaji to undergo the Agni Pareeksha. He told her that by killing Ravan, he fulfilled his duty as a husband and restored the honor of the Raghukul. Also, her bonds were freed and she could go where she pleased. Sitaji told Lakshmaji to evoke fire so that she could take refuge in Agni Dev, who is the purifier of all things and the protector of those who are always chaste and virtuous. Sitaji entered the fire due to her own free will, and the fire God did not burn her because she was always chaste in thought, word, and deed. He appeared before Ramji, leading Sitaji by the hand, and told him to accept Sitaji as she was eternally virtuous and her mind never strayed while in the clutches of Dusht Ravan.
Ramji then proclaimed to the assembly that not once had Sita left his heart, nor had he any doubt on her. If he had, why would he bridge the ocean, risk his brother's life, and fight against Ravan, Kumbhakarn, and Meghnad, who were known as peerless warriors? But it was essential that Sita Ma's virtue was proven to the whole world, because she would be the soon to be Maharani of Ayodhya. The Raghukul was known only for its virtuous righteous Kings and Queens, who always established Dharma in their rule. Through no fault of hers, Sita Ma was abducted by Ravan, and to avenge this insult, Ramji killed Ravan. He knew that the praja of Ayodhya would never accept Sita as their queen if even the slightest blemish was on her character, because the King and Queen are the highest ideals for any subject. If even a small blemish is on their name, then the praja will follow their lead and think it right to act the same way. Hindu scriptures explaining Raj Dharm say "Ya tha Raaja, thatha Praja", which means "As a King acts, so do the subjects". It is essential for the king to maintain Maryada in his court, and always seem like the ideal man to his subjects, same for the Queen. Just as the men in the kingdom follow a King's lead, so do the women follow the queen's lead. If either the King or Queen have a blemish on their character, then the society they rule will not be perfect nor happy. That's why it is said in Hindu scriptures that the King and Queen have the most difficult Dharma of all, because they have to establish such ideals to society that, no matter how much their emotions come in the way, or their love for each other, they have to seem perfect for the society. For a Raja, the praja comes first, and then family. That is the only difference between the Dharm of a common man and King. The common man's duty is to protect his family and stay true to them at all times. The King's is to protect his praja and stay true to them at all times. In reality, the King is a mere servant in the hands of the praja.
With this Raj Dharm in mind only did Ramji reject Sita Ma at first, and then accept her after Agni Dev gave proof of her virtue. He never had doubt of Sita Ma's chastitiy, and his love for her is unrivalled by any of today's fictional characters or "heros". In truth, only Ramji is the true ideal for "Prince Charming".😳
And with this same Raj Dharm did Ramji exile Sita Ma, not because he had doubt of her chastity, so I beg all of you who think Ramji doubted Sita Ma...don't think so, because it is immensely sinful to think so badly about the one who is the truest and most sincere about his love. You people who think that don't even know the extent of Sita and Ram's love for each other. You are thinking in a very humanistic fashion, because Ram and Sita are one only. They are one entity in two bodies. There is no difference in Ramji and Sitaji. They incarnated themselves on this Earth to give us humans morals and ideals to learn from. I bet any of you: If any prime minister or president of today's Rajya follows even one of Ramji's ideal Raj Dharm, then we would not have any problems that we have today. And if all men followed Ramji's ideal while all women followed Sita Ma's ideal, this world would be a much better peaceful place.
Do you know why Sitaji never rebelled against Ramji's exiling her and demanded "justice" for herself? Because she too acted accordingly to her Raj Dharm, and acted as a true Maharani of her praja. In that moment, it was not more important for Ramji and Sitaji to stay with each other and enjoy life, but to establish ideals in their praja and by sacrificing their happiness, cause regret in the hearts of the Ayodhyavasis. Who says Ram and Sita were separate? Those who have as great of a love as SitaRam are never separate, no matter where in the world they are.
Also, Ramji never forgot his duty as a husband either, because when he told Lakshman to take Sita to the forest, he never told him to leave her just anywhere, but to drop her off near Valmikji's ashram. Ramji ensured Sita Ma's security by making sure that Valmikiji found her and gave her shelter, and later, when Shatrughan performed Luv Kush's naming ceremony on his way to kill the demon Lavanasur, he too received the darshan of his Bhabhi, and told Ramji that Sita Ma was safe. Ramji always looked out for Sitaji, and at the same time fulfilled his Raj Dharm.
Neither Sitaji nor Ramji remarried during their "separation". Ramji even went to the extent of having a golden statue of Devi Sita be placed in the place of his wife during the Ashvamedh Yagna instead of remarrying, when he was told that it was essential to have his wife with him during the yagna. Sitaji stayed a single mom to the day she left the Earth, and Ramji stayed a single father for all the years he ruled Ayodhya after Sita Ma went back to Dharti Mata. They both set an ideal that it is not necessary to remarry even when bringing up children (and that too twins) alone, because if one truly has a virtuous sinless heart, God will help him/her fulfill his/her duty.
Jai Maryada Purushotham Shri Ram! Jai Sita pati Shri Ram!
I will write about Krishnaji later, when I find time. I hope this helped anyone who has a bad view on Ramji.
Roadrunnerz thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
#96
If the criteria for Godhood is -not remarrying after abandoning ones wife, then I know many Gods who are living amongst us even today. hmm i wonder if I am expected to worship them ..
200467 thumbnail
Posted: 16 years ago
#97

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny

If the criteria for Godhood is -not remarrying after abandoning ones wife, then I know many Gods who are living amongst us even today. hmm i wonder if I am expected to worship them ..

😆 tell me about it, buddy!
200467 thumbnail
Posted: 16 years ago
#98
*viewbies note - edited post for controversial character references unrelated to subject matter of topic*
Edited by return_to_hades - 16 years ago
3365 thumbnail
Posted: 16 years ago
#99

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny

If the criteria for Godhood is -not remarrying after abandoning ones wife, then I know many Gods who are living amongst us even today. hmm i wonder if I am expected to worship them ..



show me. show me one king in the entire world history who did not remarry nor had relation with any other woman but his wife in his entire life. in todays world show me one MAN who did not remarry or had relation with another woman and i will show u 100 men who have extra marital affairs, eve tease girls of their daughters age.

if the tables r turned and some other religion is criticized these same people come to their rescue when its just some traditions which r criticised (not even using degrading language for their god) these same people come to rescue. but they do not think twice nor even feel guilty to use such degrading language for our gods.
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: angelic_devil



show me. show me one king in the entire world history who did not remarry nor had relation with any other woman but his wife in his entire life. in todays world show me one MAN who did not remarry or had relation with another woman and i will show u 100 men who have extra marital affairs, eve tease girls of their daughters age.

if the tables r turned and some other religion is criticized these same people come to their rescue when its just some traditions which r criticised (not even using degrading language for their god) these same people come to rescue. but they do not think twice nor even feel guilty to use such degrading language for our gods.

Exactly!
*viewbies note - Edited for insinuating references to other members*
I am leaving this debate because it is no use debating with people who speak highly about stupid Bollywood actresses, every singe one of whom exposes, and go all huffy about some decent actors/actresses who never had a wish to go into the stupid Bollywood business.
Edited by return_to_hades - 16 years ago

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