Abortion: A Woman’s Choice, Right, or An Issue for social Judgement? - Page 5

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

There are laws and then there are morals. In most developed nations as well as in some developing nations like India, laws and morals tend to have a complementary relationship.

Lawmakers (legislators) can be voted in or voted out. But when it comes to voting, as you know, abortion would be a factor among a myriad of factors such as jobs, economy, law and order, border security, foreign policy, corruption, which influences electoral behavior, which determines an election outcome.

We are not here to discuss how to effect new laws. You have a say via your vote. You could also take to streets, as some do, to protest and put pressure on lawmakers but that's about it.

In an "academic setting", that leaves us to discuss morals.

In my opinion, "no restrictions on abortions" and "outright ban on abortions" are extreme positions. Gestational limits should apply except when a woman's life/health is at risk. That makes me "pro-choice" when it comes to a woman's first trimester and "pro-life" when it comes to a woman's third trimester (provided the woman's health/life is not at risk, in which case, I would be pro-choice again). The second trimester is where I am on the fence. The baby has a chance of survival after 24 weeks of pregnancy, so, my sense of what is right agrees with those laws that restrict abortions after 23-24 weeks of pregnancy. By this time, the woman had plenty of time to think and rethink whether to proceed or abort.

Even though my personal stance on this topic should not matter to anyone, if you want my "vote", you will have to convince me why the second trimester should also be open to "no restrictions" on a moral basis. Please bear in mind that for every persuasive argument you make about the woman, I could make one too about the fetus, and describe the actual procedure in gruesome detail.

P.S: This thread is not an announcement, so I am not sure why it is perched on top under forum announcements. Why not move it to DM forum topics?

Whenever it moves back to Debate Mansion, it will automatically become a Forum topic post.

Thank you, Mina, for telling more clearly about the thread. 😊

This topic is posted in DM only.

All GA topics are listed in forum announcements. Once it's normal, it'll start showing under DM's normal topics.

One of the reasons why abortion is a debatable topic is that, until recently, abortion was a gruesome procedure. However with the development of newer and safer techniques, this aspect is no longer relevant.

As a matter of fact, human pregnancy is one of the toughest process in nature. Consequently, we have evolved to have several mechanisms including menstrual cycles, two-parent system, medical advancement etc to make the pregnancy worthwhile (that is to have a child who lives through adulthood). Despite all these, pregnancy is still challenging, with its own set of risks, including the risk of dying. Hence, it is necessary that the pregnant person has the sole authority to decide whether to continue with the pregnancy or not, irrespective of the reasons.

One of most common "alternative" to abortion is to give the baby for adoption. This has been mentioned in few posts here too. The point is abortion is done because they do not wish to continue the process of pregnancy, which is pretty risky in itself.

The fact that this is up for a debate is truly infuriating and frustrating to say the least. If someone wants or don’t want a child shouldn’t be for politicians or society to decide. I practice a religion that forbids abortions and I personally won’t do it but that doesn’t mean I would be okay with others being stripped off of their choice. I don’t get how everyone thinks this is something everyone should have a say in, because we don’t and shouldn’t have any say in how someone wants to live their lives and make their own decision about their life.

Don’t come here with arguments like they should put it up for adoption and someone will adopt them, because that’s full of shit, statistics show a completely different story and even if hundreds of thousands of children already born into this cruel world weren’t sitting in some foster home waiting for someone to accept them and make them feel worthy to have basic homes, family and love, not everyone is fit to be a parent and that includes the said adopting ones. Kids are being auctioned, yes you heard it right, kids are being put on a display where they have to walk up and down like models where potential adopters sit there watching so they can decide which one they want to take home, and even after that humiliation most don’t end up with parents💔. Children who are abandoned by their parents often suffer for life in the hands of the said adopters. They often get abused emotionally, physically and sexually altering their lives forever. If you ask most of them if they had a choice to be brought into this world to suffer or never to be born at least 50% of them will choose not to be here at all. That’s how hard their lives are so the people claiming there are people who will adopt them needs to educate themselves because again not everyone is fit to be a parent.

If we come to the male aspect of this tasteless and stupid decision it’s not any better because men often don’t want to settle with their baby mother and certainly don’t want to pay child support at all. There are so many cases out there where men killed their partners or ex partners because they simply don’t want to pay child support. So you can spin it however you like but this is just a bad bad decision for everyone actually involved.

This has nothing to do with standing up for a life and giving it a chance because if one truly is pro life they should start fighting to protect the already living children getting killed in schools every day but most of these people claiming to be pro life are the ones who are standing against any kind of gun measurement to be put in place for gun purchases. They are fighting teeth and nail not to make gun purchases a little harder for teenagers who are killing innocent children EVERY SINGLE DAY. They don’t care about life and they certainly are not pro life. Pro power is what they really are and this is a way to control others especially women. I wish people put religion and politics aside for once and see what this is all about.

When I say hundreds and thousands of children are in foster homes waiting to be adopted, I mean each State not the whole country and don’t even get me started on how many children are on the street the rest of the world.💔💔

Originally posted by: Beautyful_Mess

When I say hundreds and thousands of children are in foster homes waiting to be adopted, I mean each State not the whole country and don’t even get me started on how many children are on the street the rest of the world.💔💔

What about the mother's mental condition during all this—giving birth through excruciating pain and anguish, placing the child for adoption, and dealing with the ensuing separation and related other complications?

She is the only person who can take a decision on this regard, neither judiciary, political parties nor the society.

So to stir up the conversation a little bit more - this state that is prolife and consider life begins at conception will not consider the fetus to be the second person in car. News link below.

https://www.news-daily.com/news/a-pregnant-woman-got-a-ticket-for-driving-in-the-hov-lane-in-texas-she/image_8fc8c5ca-984b-5a15-a3fd-009655992002.html

I think this begins the concern that if abortions are considered bad because we are infringing on the right of the fetus then the fetus should be considered a second passenger, the pregnant lady should be allowed tax exemptions from the point of conception and be given child support at the time, life insurance should be provided at point of conception and people should be able to collect on those life insurance should there be a miscarriage.

Originally posted by: nmurali

So to stir up the conversation a little bit more - this state that is prolife and consider life begins at conception will not consider the fetus to be the second person in car.

You are not "stirring up the conversation", you are being facetious.

This topic is about abortion, termination of human pregnancy. If you really want to draw parallels, you would consider the Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 which is a United States law that recognizes an embryo or fetus in utero as a legal victim, if they are injured or killed. Even in India, under section 312, whoever causes a woman to miscarry, not caused in good faith, could be punished with imprisonment.

What's relevant to the topic is a) what laws, if any, should apply to safeguarding the fetus b) is a woman the ultimate arbiter (God like!) when it comes to granting or revoking the life of the fetus. Everything else is a digression and an exercise in futility.

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

You are not "stirring up the conversation", you are being facetious.

This topic is about abortion, termination of human pregnancy. If you really want to draw parallels, you would consider the Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 which is a United States law that recognizes an embryo or fetus in utero as a legal victim, if they are injured or killed. Even in India, under section 312, whoever causes a woman to miscarry, not caused in good faith, could be punished with imprisonment.

What's relevant to the topic is a) what laws, if any, should apply to safeguarding the fetus b) is a woman the ultimate arbiter (God like!) when it comes to granting or revoking the life of the fetus. Everything else is a digression and an exercise in futility.

@bold: I would like to say that causing a woman miscarry is a crime because it violates 2 most basic human rights. First is the right to live safely, if you (general you) want a pregnant person miscarry then you are actually assulting them, since you can't harm the fetus without harming the person. The second one is the reproduction right. Every human has the right to reproduce, by intentionally creating situations that causes miscarriage, the said person is violating that right. As you can infer both are concerning the rights of pregnant person and not the fetus.

^^

I am afraid you deduced the laws incorrectly, Shri.

What led to the passage of the Unborn Victims of Violence Act was the death of Laci Peterson and her unborn son. Her husband Scott Peterson was convicted of first-degree murder for her death and second-degree murder for the death of their unborn son. And this was in California, one of the most "liberal" states!

As for section 312, Indian Penal Code, a woman who causes herself to miscarry too is within the meaning of that section and she too is subject to imprisonment if the miscarriage was deemed to be not caused in good faith. A woman not pregnant hurting herself, such as attempting suicide, is covered by a different section (309) and of course the same applies to men.