Sleet of Emotional Quivers on RadhaKrishn Love CC#11 - Page 46

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

In Sreemad Bhagwatam both father Vasudev and mother Devaki are in consent. I don’t know why but it's only Subhadra who is not taken into the plan in SB. However here Subhadra does love Arjun (although no one knows about it so the consent has not been taken)

Arjun Subhadra is definitely not like Duryodhan Bhanumati and much lesser like Samb Lakshamana since Samb was kind of physically assaulting Lakshmana when Karna caught hold of him while Duryodhan though abducted Bhanumati didn't physically force himself onto her and waited for her approval for marriage consummation (which I think anyway would have come in pressure)

Arjun Subhadra was like a consent marriage of both family and the girl although not properly taken, so I would say it wasn't r**e unlike the former two

@Chiillii I don't agree on your family approval more important logic since that would make the Krishna/Pradumnya culprits in Rukmiki/Rukmwati case because the family was against it (and defeated so forced to give up) since girls wish didn't matter

It would be very weird to have parents and brother consent and then stage a Kidnapping.😆 Why couldn't they do an arranged marriage?

Only explanations are:

1. Subhadra wanted someone else, and parents didn't want to look like the bad guys.

2. All were scared of Balram and preferred Arjun to kidnap her.

3. Parents' involvement is an interpolation to absolve Krishna of possibly the 2nd most heinous thing he did (first being Khandava). In fact, if we regard Khandava as a plan gone wrong because of Indra, Subhadra haran was the most heinous act of Krishna's. It was an intentional abduction arranged by her BROTHER, someone who should've protected her at all costs.

In fact, I've seen people argue in articles blood was thicker than water for Krishna and hence he arranged the abduction in spite of Panchali's liking for Arjuna. My God! Is that seriously an example of blood being thicker? I'd rather have water, thank you very much.

^^^^

Actually I think Krishna was trying to strengthen the alliance and he felt Arjun was the best match for Subhadra

I think Balram was more powerful and influential. He wanted the marriage of Subhadra with Duryodhan which was known by all there(all from SB).

It was probably kind of Rukmini situation where father couldn't do much since brother wanted to get the girl marry to his friend

However I dislike Arjun Subhadra case for a different reason. Considering Subhadra's Swayamvar was not yet planned, it does seem that Subhadra was underage. So basically here it was an abduction of an underage girl by man he liked planned by her brother with the permission of her parents.

While this might be acceptable for others, I think it's a most traumatic experience for the girl that none in her family, her love actually had any importance for her feelings

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Bheem talks about it. He bluntly says Panchalk was made naked. There was no one to save her.

K fans would like it to be an interpolation, but it's not.

And no, most Indologists do not believe it. Ask the K fans to cite the Indologists.

Actually they say it is not it the main text of BORI but in the annals of BORI CE where the BORI academicians say its not the part of original text

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Actually they say it is not it the main text of BORI but in the annals of BORI CE where the BORI academicians say its not the part of original text

I have read the prologmena end to end. It doesn't say that.

Annals is the BORI journal.

Ask the K fans to show the citation.

I remeber you telling me your mom is a college prof. She might have JSTOR access.

Once K fans give citations, you can look up.

I have JSTOR access through work, but they might not like my looking up BORI😆. Or I will ask IB or someone else to.

https://www.jstor.org/journal/annbhaoriresins

Basically, the scholars who compiled the CE already took out all the parts they felt were interpolations. That includes Karna's attempt during swayamvar and his digvijaya.

They did not take out vastra haran.

Actually @FP

Best way to shut up K fans😆

Remind them of the argument that Panchali managed to free the Pandavas only out sympathy factor.

if the sexual assault didn't happen, it means she freed them with her shrewd arguments.😆 She managed to defeat DDSK's plans without any drama whatsoever. Only her knowledge of law. That will confuse the heck out of them.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

^^^^

Actually I think Krishna was trying to strengthen the alliance and he felt Arjun was the best match for Subhadra

I think Balram was more powerful and influential. He wanted the marriage of Subhadra with Duryodhan which was known by all there(all from SB).

It was probably kind of Rukmini situation where father couldn't do much since brother wanted to get the girl marry to his friend

However I dislike Arjun Subhadra case for a different reason. Considering Subhadra's Swayamvar was not yet planned, it does seem that Subhadra was underage. So basically here it was an abduction of an underage girl by man he liked planned by her brother with the permission of her parents.

While this might be acceptable for others, I think it's a most traumatic experience for the girl that none in her family, her love actually had any importance for her feelings

1) I 100% agree Arjun Subhadra was a primarily political alliance.

2) But if Krishna wanted Arjun to marry Subhadra, he wouldn't have waited until Arjun got there UNPLANNED before arranging it.

He would've tried to arrange it long before.

That's why I do believe the Suyodhan-Subhadra alliance theory. Conveniently for Krishna, Arjun got there.

ie, he was convenient and not a bad guy.

If it had been Bheem who got there, it would've been Bheem who abducted.

Krishna was not about to mess up the alliance with the prospective emperor by having his sister married to the emperor's sworn enemy.

3) Underage marriage was condoned in the times. Bheeshma says it. The way Subhadra is described, she was post puberty. After puberty, girls were expected to wait for at least 3 years before wedding. Assume an early puberty of 13 (completion of puberty, not just menses). That means she was between 13 and 16. (side note: Panchali would've been AT LEAST 16 that means).

So if parents gave consent, Balram would have no recourse to stop it.

Abduction with parents' consent makes no sense. Abduction with only Krishna's consent does make sense.

4) Balram had support among the yadavas, but yadavas as a tribe do not determine a girl's wedding. Her parents do. So Balram could decide on who yadavas would support. Not on who Subhadra would marry OVER her parents' objections. Then there was the actual king, Ugrasena.

5) Rukmini situation was very diff. She objected to Shishupal. Her brother wanted it. her father certainly didn't object to Shishupal and call Krishna.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Actually @FP

Best way to shut up K fans😆

Remind them of the argument that Panchali managed to free the Pandavas only out sympathy factor.

if the sexual assault didn't happen, it means she freed them with her shrewd arguments.😆 She managed to defeat DDSK's plans without any drama whatsoever. Only her knowledge of law. That will confuse the heck out of them.

Even without Vastraharan it was sexual assault. So the Karna fans can absolve him.

Originally posted by: vyapti

Even without Vastraharan it was sexual assault. So the Karna fans can absolve him.

If you remove Vastraharan actually there is not much of direct involvement of Karna in sexual assault.

So removal of Vastraharan actually makes Karna an okayish person. He wasn't directly a part of Lakshagriha or Bheem poisoning,(as per BORI) and the Abhimanyu vadh although dislikely wasn't completely immoral

It is basically Vastraharan which makes them completely answerless(with BORI removal of the Naham varnami Sutam verse, they don't even have the option to say this was his revenge for the insult he faced)

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

1) I 100% agree Arjun Subhadra was a primarily political alliance.

2) But if Krishna wanted Arjun to marry Subhadra, he wouldn't have waited until Arjun got there UNPLANNED before arranging it.

He would've tried to arrange it long before.

That's why I do believe the Suyodhan-Subhadra alliance theory. Conveniently for Krishna, Arjun got there.

ie, he was convenient and not a bad guy.

If it had been Bheem who got there, it would've been Bheem who abducted.

Krishna was not about to mess up the alliance with the prospective emperor by having his sister married to the emperor's sworn enemy.

3) Underage marriage was condoned in the times. Bheeshma says it. The way Subhadra is described, she was post puberty. After puberty, girls were expected to wait for at least 3 years before wedding. Assume an early puberty of 13 (completion of puberty, not just menses). That means she was between 13 and 16. (side note: Panchali would've been AT LEAST 16 that means).

So if parents gave consent, Balram would have no recourse to stop it.

Abduction with parents' consent makes no sense. Abduction with only Krishna's consent does make sense.

4) Balram had support among the yadavas, but yadavas as a tribe do not determine a girl's wedding. Her parents do. So Balram could decide on who yadavas would support. Not on who Subhadra would marry OVER her parents' objections. Then there was the actual king, Ugrasena.

5) Rukmini situation was very diff. She objected to Shishupal. Her brother wanted it. her father certainly didn't object to Shishupal and call Krishna.

I won't go for the second point. This was a time when Jarasandha was still an emperor, Yudhisthir was yet to conduct even Rajasuya and Hastinapur power was no less, even they could have become emperor. Aside after the partition of kingdom there was no apparent enmity between the two groups. I mean Krishna would have certainly seen that Yudhisthir accepted the worse portion of the kingdom without any fight. And they had been visiting each other since then.

He might have planned something big from the Pandavas but just his planning didn't mean success. In fact he had it easier to enter Pandavas clan since they were his cousins and their wives was his BFF, Subhadra marriage to Duryodhan would have got him access to the Kauravas clan too. It would actually have been a win win for him. And definitely the Emperor wouldn't have had any problem to it because certainly till now Duryodhan wasn't an enemy of the ever forgiving Yudhisthir

I do believe in Duryodhan Subhadra alliance angle but I think he didn't want it because of the character of Duryodhan. Arjun's entry just gave him an option to save his sister from Duryodhan.

The marriage only strengthened the bond with the team he felt had more potential and got him an entry into their inner chambers.

IMO he wanted his sister married to Pandavas to strengthen his support and the entry of Arjun made it easy for him

Or might be he knew the feelings of Subhadra towards Arjun. But didn't want to go directly against Balram and hence made this plan

Even if Subhadra was 14, I think that too is not mature enough to accept the act of abduction

Agreed on your part of parents. If girl and parents agreed there was no reason for abduction. This makes me often feel, could Subhadra like someone else

Happy Durga Ashtmi people