Jodha Akbar 76-78: Clarity and confusion - Page 6

Thank you, my dear child. I am really appreciative of the fact that you have not missed a single post of mine!

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: Nonie12345

Awesome analysis Shymala Aunty😃

Dear Adiana,

I agree with you completely. This is as true today as it was,and far more so, in the 16th century The Jodha-Jalal equation they show here is unbelievable, and totally unrealistic. Even in the case of a political alliance, the wife had to work at being accepted, and not only by the likes of Hamida and Salima, but by the main character, her patidev.

And then, as I am going to discuss in my next post, there is the little matter of conjugal rights, and the right of the wife to deny them indefinitely to the husband and still want to enjoy all the privileges of being his begum. And she also complains that he is not giving her his vishwas and sammaan, and keeping her prasanna! This is called eating your cake and having it. Good for Jodha that she has such an "understanding" spouse!

Do see the last part of my response to Lavanya on pre-page. And while you are about it, do see the whole!

Shyamala

Originally posted by: adiana12

Hi lavanya and all others who have this question of what did Jalal do in this marriage.

Dear Shyamala, this is something that even you'll agree with. In all marriages, west or east it is the woman who has to work at making the marriage a good one a successful one. The man may or may not work at the marriage. Unfair yes but that's the way it has been and it will be - however much we shout about equality etc etc. And here too it's Jodha who has to put in the effort needed to make this a marriage first and a good or successful one after.

The fact is that she never wanted to make this a marriage but just an alliance and this is exactly what Mainavati meant when she asked her if she'd ever worked at making it one. Jalal does not need to make any effort to make this a marriage but he does put in some efforts though he botches them up as well which is more than what can be said of Jodha. It's totally up to Jodha to make this a marriage - that unfortunately is the way of the world even today as it was then and will be so tomorrow.

And this is coming from me who happens to be a hardcore equality proponent😛

Shyamala if you remember we tamils have a term 'talagaani manthiram' - the term the older women used when a young bride was the center of attention of her husband and they called it so as the use of conjugality by the bride to attract her husband 😆 - so it seems ridiculous this entire issue of Jodha's of withholding conjugal rights beyond a point. In fact the movie JA made more sense in this respect than this show.😉😆

My dear Zhanna,

What a very interesting set of comments! You really work hard to bridge the cultural gap, and I must say you do it very well. I love your Russian sayings, they are fascinating, as all folk sayings are.

Your comment that Jalal, despite his short fuse, is more mature than Jodha both mentally and emotionally, though they are of roughly the same age, is very well taken.

As you and I are on the same page for most of your comments, I will restrict my response to the part about Mainavati's lecture to Jodha in the Diwan-e-Khas. My supplementary remarks are in fuchsia.

Shyamala Di

Originally posted by: alffim

Dear Shyamala!
You have made an excellent analysis (as always 😊), but me especially like your description of subconscious feelings Jalal to Jodha and incomprehensible for his own reason for fear of losing her.
I really liked your description of feelings in Jalal Darbar (?). Now I think that probably he tried to reconcile themselves with the departure of Jodha, not only because he - the Emperor and her husband, accustomed to submissive wives, but not wanting to continue her destroy?
Very good green and yellow Jodha. Before your reviews I saw only one flat picture of a proud, but unhappy Jodha.. But and then I was surprised by the words of Alter-ego Jodha: "you aren't ready to understand the culture of the local people, not to mention the fact to accept it (culture)". It gave me a different view of the situation, especially remembering that love which gave Hamida Bano and Salema.
And a little extinguished nimbus over head Jodha. 😛
But in these episodes there are scenes that I still do not understand.

1. Mainavati- Jalal: The angle of vision : In 2013, myviewprem had protested strongly against what he saw as Mainavati insulting the Shahenshah by telling Jodha that her father had had to make great sacrifices and endure deep disgrace because of this marriage, that he had been ostracized by the rest of the Rajputs, and that it was becoming almost impossible to find husbands for Sukanya and Shivani because of the Jalal-Jodha marriage. He had pointed out, correctly, that it was not Jalal who had sought the marriage from Bharmal, it was the other way around (he had of course conned Jodha's Bapusa into doing that, but that is siyaasat!)

I beg to differ. This sort of thing is like a kaleidoscope, what you see depends on the angle of vision.

Firstly, even granting all that myviewprem has said, it still makes no difference to Jalal. In fact he would hardly let on that he had noticed these remarks and taken them as jibes directed at himself; it would have been beneath him to retort to any of them. He would have been very ill-advised to have done anything like that.

It would be the same with the rest of the court, whose POV would be exactly like that of Adham Khan when he was jibing at Mansingh and Bhagwan Das. Something like: Beti dekar Amer to bacha liya inhon ne, besharam kahin ke, aur ab dekho kya rona dhona apni baddimaag ladki ki vajah se!

One has to understand the mechanics of the scene and the situation. Jalal silences Mynavati on both the points on which she addresses him, regarding her sons and Jodha's failings, and she has in the end to beg him with folded hands not to send Jodha back to Amer. So, who do you think came out on top?

Lastly, I do not think that Mainavati meant all that she said as jibes at Jalal, for after all she wants to leave her daughter there, and it would hardly be advisable for her to anger the son in law-cum-emperor. I think she just got carried away in her litany of woes to make sure her daughter understood the seriousness of the matter.

I agree with you that this is not a mockery Mayawati. But I was very surprised by this part of the monologue Maynvati to Jodha. I do not understand. She accuses her that because of her marriage, they will have difficulties with the marriage Shivani and Sukanya, and they "that he had been ostracized by the rest of the Rajputs ". But Jodha only one who somehow tried to resist this marriage. Where is the logic?

That Jodha resisted the marriage is not relevant to Mainavati. She does mention that when she adds: Tumhara balidaan vyart ho jaye, yeh humein sweekar nahin. But her point is that there is no way Jodha's family can permit her to back out of the marriage now and let all they have suffered and done go down the drain, making them a worse laughing stock of the rest of Rajasthan in the process.

I think she just got carried away in her litany of woes to make sure her daughter understood the seriousness of the matter?

We have a saying pretty violent expression, "to put pressure on the pity." Maynavati trying to provoke at Jodha had a guilt complex, and cause feeling pity in Jalal?

Point of the day: I distinctly remember Jodha her glaring at her Kanha with unaccustomed hostility, at the end of her behas with the Green Jodha and the Maroon Jodha, and asking him a question that sounded decidedly cutting. That was probably why she did not lug him along to the pool, for otherwise, she is always shown with her Kanha, like Jalal with his shamsheer!Wink

😆😆😆

His blaming her for putting a sword to the throat of the Shahenshah is illogical, for she did not know then that it was he, and he should be grateful for that. If she had known it, he would surely have had no head at all, and thus no way of yelling at her now! WinkWink

I really like your ironic comments! There is a phrase: "About female logic at least talk, about men logic - even no one had heard". Please, men not to be offended! All worthy men I am always respected and been friends. :)

A defence mechanism: Jalal's rage after dragging Jodha out of the pool is directly proportional to, first, the fear he felt, and then the relief he now feels. Both speak to his zehen, and clarify for him what exactly this tiresome, obstreperous, infuriating wife of his means to him.

Attraction Jalal to Jodha so strong that I remembered another: "Mouses were crying, pricked, but continued to guzzle cactus".

But if the Shahenshah harps repeatedly on the Mughal shaan and guroor theme to explain why he had rushed to rescue her, adding a categoric refresher about how much she gets on his nerves and how much he hates her, why, that is the only defence mechanism he has!

He could hardly confess, even to himself, that when Ruqaiya had finished with her dire warning, the breath had caught in his throat as an insensate fear of loss had clamped icy fingers around his innermost being. So the Amer ki Mirchi had to be paid back in her own coin, sood samet.

As for Jodha, if only the Green Jodha could have had a go at her again, she would have realised that there was someone who not only cares whether she lived or died, but was prepared to rescue her from herself. The romantics could then have rejoiced. As could even accredited realists like yours truly!

Your definition - is excellent and romantic, and most importantly, without the creepy pink syrup style ladies' novels.

Remarkable thoughtfulness: It was again thoughtful of Jalal to have thus shielded Jodha from the endless, and often malicious questions and lamentations that would have bombarded her if her suicide attempt had become public knowledge. He does not want it known for his own reasons as well, of course, but he does make sure she is spared a very rough time of it by keeping out everyone, including even his Ammijaan and Motibai, and proclaiming that Jodha was being punished for playing truant from the palace.

I loved the way in which, despite his welling irritation - which, in such cases, is only redoubled by the relief felt after the crisis is past - Jalal took the time to reassure a weeping Moti about the welfare of her Ranisa (a graceful adaab to Rajput mores), and even more so his proud assertion Mughal sultanat ki begum hai, implying that he would not allow anything to happen to the Mughal sultanat ki begum.

Another example of the sensitivity of Jalal and his ability to feel the pain of others. They Jodha same age, but he is older than her mentally and emotionally. This is me with surprise and consciously. Before, I am - subconsciously... 😊

Originally posted by: sashashyam

<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Dear Adiana,

I agree with you completely. This is as true today as it was,and far more so, in the 16th century The Jodha-Jalal equation they show here is unbelievable, and totally unrealistic. Even in the case of a political alliance, the wife had to work at being accepted, and not only by the likes of Hamida and Salima, but by the main character, her patidev.

And then, as I am going to discuss in my next post, there is the little matter of conjugal rights, and the right of the wife to deny them indefinitely to the husband and still want to enjoy all the privileges of being his begum. And she also complains that he is not giving her his vishwas and sammaan, and keeping her prasanna! This is called eating your cake and having it. Good for Jodha that she has such an "understanding" spouse!

Do see the last part of my response to Lavanya on pre-page. And while you are about it, do see the whole!

Shyamala

Razor sharp logic and articulation while talking about the misses and inconsistencies / inadequacies in Jodha's character - That will make hardcore Jodha lovers admit/accept it. I simply love you more for this.

Somewhere I saw some reference to readers not being neutral. People were not even allowed to say that there is a fault in Jodha character in the original run of JA !!! - So much of her mahantaa having spread to the forum, she was almost put on a pedestal like a goddess while Jalal did Pratakshanams.

But hats off for doing this - Incredible energy and interest.

Originally posted by: adiana12

Hi lavanya and all others who have this question of what did Jalal do in this marriage. Dear Shyamala, this is something that even you'll agree with. In all marriages, west or east it is the woman who has to work at making the marriage a good one a successful one. The man may or may not work at the marriage. Unfair yes but that's the way it has been and it will be - however much we shout about equality etc etc. And here too it's Jodha who has to put in the effort needed to make this a marriage first and a good or successful one after. The fact is that she never wanted to make this a marriage but just an alliance and this is exactly what Mainavati meant when she asked her if she'd ever worked at making it one. Jalal does not need to make any effort to make this a marriage but he does put in some efforts though he botches them up as well which is more than what can be said of Jodha. It's totally up to Jodha to make this a marriage - that unfortunately is the way of the world even today as it was then and will be so tomorrow.

And this is coming from me who happens to be a hardcore equality proponent😛

It is an interesting observation adi. True . But can a man work on his marriage ? It is impossible to even conceive. Guess it has something to do with masculine Vs feminine. In some marriages where feminine qualities are found more in male partners ( like sensitivity, compassion), it may fall on that guy ?

My dear Devki,

It is good to see you back here. Thank you for liking this one so much.

The 80:20 was in the old Jodha Akbar forum, during 2013/14. It was fierce, the partisanship and the unthinking defence of Jodha no matter what she did and how badly she behaved. The Jodha-philes used to report every post they did not like because it was critical of Jodha, and/or supported Jalal, get threads closed, and so on.

Why, I got 2 increases in my warning levels for being "too hard on Jodha and Benazir (?)", and one for writing a long response to Donjas on the siege of Chittor because it was not in the thread solely devoted to historical matters. Which was when I quit the IF and went over completely to the Dhwani forum. The one regarding Jodha was because I wrote a post entitled Neither a doormat nor a donkey, borrowing that phrase from Vicki, and actually praising Jodha for not being a pushover or a beast of burden. But someone thought I was calling her a donkey!

Now here, it might be half and half, as you say, but then again, there is hardly anything serious by way of discussion or comment,when I compare it to what went on in 2013/14. And let us be objective, my dear. This Jodha is most unrealistic for a 16th century queen. And she behaves very badly every now and then. Let us see the snake segment in my post due out tomorrow.

Jalal, who started out as a harsh, unfeeling warrior, is now so "understanding" that he lets her treat him like a doormat. As we proceed, it will get worse and worse, until all the sensible readers will quit in disgust. I shall head this exodus!😉

As I did with Lavanya, I hereby give you open-ended permission (not that you need it!) to be as "understanding" of Jodha as you like. Only please do not inflict any Jalal-Jodha comparison exercises on me. I have responded to Lavanya's here, and it took too much time and effort. As I told her, I am not going to respond to anything more in this genre, though you are all of course free to put them out on my threads or anywhere else.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: devkidmd

As usual great post Aunty. I guess I am one of the "Jodhaphiles"😆 . Tt seems more like a 50:50 than 80:20 to me though.

What might surprise you is that it is really Jalal who got me hooked on the show and kept me there and not Jodha. She kind of grew on me later.

What honestly surprises me is that the tide has turned against Jodha so early on and so strongly.

It is as if Jalal can do no wrong and Jodha can do no right. If she deviates even a little bit from our expectations of woulda coulda shoulda she gets it with both barrels while if Jalal does something not up to the mark he gets a reprimand like one would a favorite child(at least that is the way it seems to me). Hence my defense mode for Jodha. Trust me I do not like Jalal being criticized either.

Anyway, what is more important is that people feel comfortable putting their different views forward on your thread without feeling intimidated one way or the other. Rather this than the pretense of being neutral. And I do not mean to say that the writers that you mentioned were pretending in any way. This is just for the present lot that posts.

Devki

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Thank you, my dear Sri!

I knew you would like it if you read it, just as I knew what Preeti or Devki would say if they wrote something on this thread. And you just have to see the Likes below one post or the other to classify likely future responses!😉 After a while, the surprise element is completely lost, like a parliamentary debate where all concerned toe the Party line!😉

I switch back and forth - I have wanted to kick Jalal soundly with hobnailed boots, as I noted after the Holi fiasco - but mostly, Jodha, with her rock hard self-righteousness and her mahaanta, gets on my nerves big time, and that shows. The difference between me and most others is that I can cite facts to back up almost everything I say.

In the one other forum where I wrote analyses for 8 months, the Pavitra Rishta one, those siding with the girl and with the boy were pretty much evenly matched. Here, the Jodha-philes outnumber the Jalal-philes about 80:20. You should have seen the forum during the original telecasts! But there were also a number of good writers who were not fans - Vicki, Meghana, Lashy, Mansi - and it was fun to read them. My old threads were also full of very lively debates. These ones are mere pale shadows, like ghosts in a cemetery.

Shyamala Akka

My dear Donjas,

I am sorry that in the process of going back and forth between the posts I was responding to, including a later one of yours, I missed this one.

Yes, as I had noted in my other response, I do use the old material, but often it needs amplification, and at times complete rewriting. As we proceed, I might be able to use more of the old stuff, and my later posts were very detailed.

My supplementary comments are in blue italics.

Shyamala

Originally posted by: Donjas

Another fantastic post. I hope by this stage you are using mostly old material. No need to stress your hands to type new thoughts unless they challenge a viewpoint previously held.

So here goes-

1 Mainawati told some hard truths to Jodha about marriage and why a return trip to Amer was out of the question. She left out just one critical thing, suicide. If marriage to Jalal and saving Amer was 'a duty' to Jodha, then staying alive was a duty too. If Jodha died then the "great sacrifice of marriage to that Jallad Jalal" was in vain. So 'coming back to Amer' is not allowed and suicide is also not permissible.

Yes, this is a very perceptive comment. I had missed this aspect. What she is saying is the same as the family told Jodha when she wanted to commit suicide after the muh dikhayi.

2 I have already written in a previous thread of yours that the Mughal Jodha alter ego was refreshingly honest, more so than at any time in the serial. But of course that is unpalatable to the real Jodha because it contradicts one of the core beliefs of hers, Mughals are bad, Jalal is terrible, there is no hope for redemption.

It is a great pity that the Green Jodha was a one shot exercise. After this, they never showed Jodha introspecting, except for a bit at the end of the Sujamal affair.

3 I thoroughly enjoyed reading your description of the Diwan e Khaas scene and especially Jalal's reaction to Mainawati's refusal. I also agreed with the logic that Mainawati's words about Mughals would not have mattered a whit to Jalal. Previously I had the same opinion as Myviewprem.

So I have made a convert of you on this particular point!

The suicide attempt and the aftermath deserve more thinking on my part. I will come back later.

Folks,

Episode 76: Realism at long last

Our favourite melodrama was seriously dramatic here . I do not propose to recount the happenings except as reference points, but rather to set out a few reflections on what these goings on mean - on the surface and on the subterranean plane - and about how they lead to my title.

Mainavati:

Jodha for all her lofty high fi views on her family is innocent. She has not yet realized that in india once you are married you are not expected back in your mothers house no matter what? Whether in laws trouble you or husbands torture you or you become a widow their job is done once they have married a daughter and she no longer really belongs to the family. Their hands are washed off any responsibility in life. In mathura track Jodha seems to have understood it and goes to ashram instead of back to amer when jalal kicks her out. But that is how its in india and majority countries today once married girl is no longer the responsibility of parents or brothers etc. They use the words of parampara and other unmarried girls but that is just excuses instead of directly saying on face to the daughter that you are not wanted back home. Her mother never once thinks what is jodha will commit suicide and if she had died in her attempt her parents would have just acted as if they are sorry and continued on with all the perks that came their way by marrying jodha to Akbar. Jodha is either too idealistic and blind to reality or too innocent to realize she has been married off to Akbar and not expected back to amer without her husband or son in tow ever. Even today in india if a married girl comes home and husband does not come to drop her or kids do not come along family gets aprehensive. So 16th century we can only imagine the situation.

and Jodha dear do not forget your father asked for jalal's hand not other way round, so all the more to make this marriage work.

Jodha: A one track mind:

Then the accusations that he did not live up to his vachans, ki wo humein prasanna rakhenge, hamare vishwas karenge, hamara sammaan karenge. It is clearly Jalal's lack of vishwas in her during the dature ka ark affair that rankles the most. Whence her outburst to him then: Humne bar bar saugandh khayi ki hum nirdosh hain, humne kuchch nahin kiya, par aapne hamari ek nahi suni. Ab Ruqaiya Begum ne kaha ki koyi aur gunehgar hai aur aap maan gaye?

Now why does jodha expect the angry jallad jalla to listen to her that she did not kill Ruqaiah baby when the amer ark was used? Jodha is new to agra and hates jalal so there may be a slight chance that she also may not want her jallad husband to have baby. If police suspect all its fine here jalla is police and he suspects jodha(ok personal grudge dominated here but in judiciary bias will always exist, who said law was ever unbaised?) Here jalla already angry with her hates her so he is shouting using his power as judge to burn ameris alive

The Green Jodha: A refreshing alter ego:

Jalal: Blindsided:

So here is a husband wife both have decided that they have had enough and want to live away from each other and like a family court Mynavati orders that she shall not have anything to do with jodha and that she has to stay with husband. Both husband and wife are shocked i mean they had expected something else and what a shock? Jalal is sympathetic after all agra is his house and he just has to bear a few taunts from her but jodha hates it and will have to stay there. When jodha disappears jalla is scared what if jodha commit suicide? He keeps saying mughal shaan kandhaan ki shaan but in reality he is scared if she dies it will be a blot on his soul after all he is now palanhartha of jodha. But i cannot believe that jodha ran off to commit suicide, some other braver girl would have gone to a mathura etc and made jalal and make him roam all over seraching for her in guilt 😉. But no she jumps into yamuna to die but ha ha did you listen to want jalal tells her rukh jahiye jodha begum yeh humara hukum ha 😆😕 oh god when will a man on mission to die listen to any orders even from an emperor. You must handle such person like a kid kid talking them into giving up thoughts rather than ordering around. Akbar is so foolish in some aspects or worldly unwise must say.

But in all this suicide attempt i am confused jodha gets scraed like she has seen a deadly cobra whenever akbar comes to her not even with intentions to own her and here before suicide she says my husband did not accept me blah blah etc. Jodha madam your husband is a casanova guy he will be more than happy to have you dancing to his tunes.

Then again just a few seconds a go jodha was ready to die and now when he takes her to the guffa she is scared that he will do something? why?

Jalla has by now realized that jodha feels as lonely as himself.

My 2nd part for your consideration-